May 23, 2006

Vanguard beta in trouble?

Vanguard : Saga of Heroes has been in beta for a few months now. I've bitched about the game designs plenty of times. I even bashed on a Vanguard preview over at IGN. For some reason I received a very in depth comment (#5) to that IGN preview article. I have no way to confirm anything that was said by the anonymous commenter, but it's well written and insightful in a way that doesn't break any NDA. I have reposted the text below.
----Begin repost----

Anonymous said...

Ok Hearless, here's the scoop. No, I'm not going to break the NDA and go into specifics about what the game has, shouldn't have or needs.

But I will tell you what's primarily wrong with beta right now. You may find it's not what the typical critics would think.

These are from my own personal notes that I keep, yet refuse to post because of the assholes in that beta.

This is one excerpt:

======================

The forums take peaks of highs and lows. You can literally sense people trying to like this game. People trying suspiciously hard to find something to write about on the forums that's positive. Unfortunately, these recounts are absent of any detail and hardly convince me that there is something more I haven't gotten to see that will change my perspective drastically.

I often wondered why that is. I have drawn the conclusion that people are afraid to speak constructively based on the firing squad that sits there refreshing the screen every minute to see who would dare speak when not spoken to.

They default to debating about MMOG's in general as a result. This indicates strongly that people do see a barren and shapeless world before them, even though they dare not admit it publically. I get the sense they are thrilled for an opportunity to mold this game into what they want it to be. Egos run rampant in this regard and several of the more vocal beta players are insistent upon getting their ideas burned into the blueprint. Especially when these people notice that the ink isn't even dry on that blueprint.

I dare say, the imagined wonderful Vanguard they testify about on the forums, is a contrived line of bullshit used as a means to suck up to developers in order to get their own ideas written into the design. If the design was there, they would just be testing. But considering it's not, this leaves an opportunity for the wannabe-game-designer, to gain a captive audience.

And captives we are. Many an unhappy tester has been silenced regularly by these fanatics who put any and every comment under their own jaded microscopes. Unfortunately this activity goes unchecked by any form of moderation. Subsequently, what you get is nothing but chastisement by the regular fanbois who seek to mold this game the way they see fit. Anyone pointing out the existing flaws, is summarily lynched, tarred and feathered, despite the validity of their concerns.

Even a developer was called on the carpet by beta players as recent as two weeks ago. The disrespect and rudeness of the regular, vocal dissenters of MMOG-today, ruthlessly bit into this poor guy like a pack of wolves. Just as the animals they are, at the first smell of blood, they all wanted a piece of him. The crime? The mere suggestion that corpse runs were not a fun factor and should be removed to a lesser penalty then what currently exists in Vanguard right now. What did Brad do? He basically apologized for his staff's outburst.

There is also a curious hatred for World of Warcraft, specifically. Curious, because much of what World of Warcraft has done was based on the original Everquest design and expounded from there. It's certainly ironic how these fanbois will rip apart anything WoW, yet praise, anything Everquest.

To the detriment of Vanguard, they will protest any implementation that even remotely resembles a mechanic within World of Warcraft. Good or bad, it doesn't matter. If it's something within WoW, they want it O-U-T. Likewise, if you are from WoW, they want YOU out, too. They've already succeeded in driving out many of those testers. They're long gone and I can't say I blame them.

I can't help, considering all that, but feel pity for Brad McQuaid. Here's a man who started out with a "vision" and held an open forum for years before beta, allowing others to share his space and ideas.

Yet something happened between then and now. Something worth pitying the man over. His leniency and viewpoints were thrown back in his face from disgruntled game-junkies from all over the virtual world spectrum. Vanguard is where many of the disgruntled and disbanded landed to bum a free meal. In the process, they are now trying to steal the keys to his house and his car and have already taken over his computer. The only thing left is to just hand over the code because they've already gotten into his game.

How can you not feel sorry for a man who now sits out on his own front steps, wondering if he should call the police or the psycho ward to rid them off of his property?

The game may very well be lifeless due to the fact that he doesn't know himself anymore, what it is he should do.

The void in his game speaks volumes towards the fact that he fears developing it the way it needs to be done.

Let's face it, this is a very capable man. He's demonstrated that with his history. A man who created Everquest, wrote the design for the lands, the characters, the events, etc. He's not stupid by any means. Yet his new world reflects a man who fears even adding the simplest mapping feature, for instance. A feature, so subetly done this past week, but was met with OUTRAGE by touted old-school gamers. How can a man function under that kind of idiotic pressure?

Vanguard's progress is evidence that he can't. His FAQ is constantly thrown in his face. An FAQ that was written years ago and probably has been totally reconsidered based on the fact that under 100 people are logging into his beta daily. It's not because the game doesn't have potential. It's more probably because normal people don't have time, nor energy, to put up with the nuts in that place and that's the truth!

Note to the clueless FAQ-touter: That page was taken down last week. Without fanfare or notice, it was quietly swept off the internet and replaced by the infamous "page not found" message. You have to get the impression that MAYBE this guy has finally realized SOMETHING?

While realization is the first step and is a good thing, he still has yet to rid himself of the crackpot company he has allowed in there.

My suggestion is to close beta entirely. Shut it down and use the excuse that time is now needed due to the change of publishers from Microsoft to Sony Online Entertainment. Say that hardware restructuring needs to be done and don't hold Vanguard to any reappearance date. Shut down the forums with a simple message that you will be back up after the transition is complete.

Dump all your beta testers to date and start fresh after you're back online and have something done to offer them.

Put in the ideas you have wanted to add and improve without having to get "permission" from your existing, suicidal fan-base.

Maybe then you can go back to enjoying what you do best - designing games.


----End repost----
Again I can't confirm any of this, but it makes you wonder whats going on over in the Sigil camp. Is the SOE partnership and the purchase away from Microsoft Game Studios a sign of bad times? I've doomcasted this game before and I'll do it again, but McQuaid better start coming through for his true community before it bites him in the ass... again.

Update: 5 Aug, 2009 - Edited post, removed conversation links, and applied label.

427 comments:

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Anonymous said...

Holy Vanboi shit! Heartless reels in the exclusives! lol

I gotta tell my blog friends. ;0)

Anonymous said...

Holy Vanboi shit! Heartless reels in the exclusives! lol

I gotta tell my blog friends. ;0)

heartlessgamer said...

If only I had friends :(

Anonymous said...

Take heart, oh Heartless one. You made it to the most heartless of forums anyway. haha

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/22602-mmogchart-does-e3-roundup-4.html

I still love reading you,

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

Take heart, oh Heartless one. You made it to the most heartless of forums anyway. haha

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/22602-mmogchart-does-e3-roundup-4.html

I still love reading you,

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

Hey Vanbois! When you get into beta, be sure to come back here and apologize because the number logging in is exactly as this guy reported.

I'm in that beta. Why the hell would I lie? I wish like hell there were more. I wish like hell what he wrote wasn't true. I don't wanna group with those assholes. I dare anyone in that beta to say it's not true. It happens to be very true. In fact he was being KIND!

http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54678

Anonymous said...

Hey Vanbois! When you get into beta, be sure to come back here and apologize because the number logging in is exactly as this guy reported.

I'm in that beta. Why the hell would I lie? I wish like hell there were more. I wish like hell what he wrote wasn't true. I don't wanna group with those assholes. I dare anyone in that beta to say it's not true. It happens to be very true. In fact he was being KIND!

http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54678

Anonymous said...

I actually believe the article. This person obviously followed this game and wanted it to succeed. He didn't just come out nowhere. This is too specific to be written off as a joke.

He apparently trusts Heartless and posted here instead of one of a thousand different places he could have done it. It does not sound malicious. It sounds like someone was trying to send a wakeup call to Brad and didn't know how so trusted Heartless to do it for him. Just looking at the responses that claim this article is true coming out of the woodwork in only a few short hours of it being posted.

Wow...just WOW!

Where are the rest of this guy's notes?

Anonymous said...

I actually believe the article. This person obviously followed this game and wanted it to succeed. He didn't just come out nowhere. This is too specific to be written off as a joke.

He apparently trusts Heartless and posted here instead of one of a thousand different places he could have done it. It does not sound malicious. It sounds like someone was trying to send a wakeup call to Brad and didn't know how so trusted Heartless to do it for him. Just looking at the responses that claim this article is true coming out of the woodwork in only a few short hours of it being posted.

Wow...just WOW!

Where are the rest of this guy's notes?

Prognosticator said...

Thanks for posting this, _Heartless. I'm disappointed, nay, not disappointed, but plain bummed ot hear this person's tale from the beta. it may just be better to develop these things in a vacuum without all the trolls getting into the designer's head.

Prognosticator said...

Thanks for posting this, _Heartless. I'm disappointed, nay, not disappointed, but plain bummed ot hear this person's tale from the beta. it may just be better to develop these things in a vacuum without all the trolls getting into the designer's head.

Anonymous said...

just read Anyen's retort on FoH calling this guy a liar. Says he knows cuz he's in beta. Well so am I. Every word of that article is true. Anyen is the one that is lying. Shit, there are so many posts screaming at people and shoving that vision down everyone's throats, it's not even funny anymore.

There's several guys that beat up on everyone if they feel the game isn't hard enough and they don't agreed with. /shrug Maybe Anyen is one of them.

I don't see anyone there named Anyen so it's quite possible he's one of the fanatics trying to justify that shit by discrediting anything written over here.

Anonymous said...

just read Anyen's retort on FoH calling this guy a liar. Says he knows cuz he's in beta. Well so am I. Every word of that article is true. Anyen is the one that is lying. Shit, there are so many posts screaming at people and shoving that vision down everyone's throats, it's not even funny anymore.

There's several guys that beat up on everyone if they feel the game isn't hard enough and they don't agreed with. /shrug Maybe Anyen is one of them.

I don't see anyone there named Anyen so it's quite possible he's one of the fanatics trying to justify that shit by discrediting anything written over here.

Anonymous said...

Anyen, WTF is wrong with you? You gotta be friggin **BLIND** not to see the patronizing bullshit and witch hunt those vanbois are on, especially towards anyone who plays WOW!

Get a clue, man! READ!

Anonymous said...

Anyen, WTF is wrong with you? You gotta be friggin **BLIND** not to see the patronizing bullshit and witch hunt those vanbois are on, especially towards anyone who plays WOW!

Get a clue, man! READ!

heartlessgamer said...

I do hope to get this into Brad's hands somehow.

Anonymous said...

Well isn't that some shit Anyen calling this guy a liar. Got this when I asked my friend what's going on and I was told that piece is pretty much the truth. Friend seemed scared to post anything. Refused, in fact. But I did manage to weasle this out of him.

This was pasted first from the dev that I guess was shot down by the beta player. The dev said, supposedly,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nino
For every ONE person that says CRs are needed and somehow hardk0re, there are ONE HUNDRED who completely disagree.


Then I'm told the "worst guy in the place", who can't spell for crap, replied with this scathing threat. Uh, this is the beta player, by the way:

Be very careful, the line your crossing Nino, out of the 100 hundred you talking about how many would you think you win over?

IF/When you cross that line, if you believe that your going to compete against wow, your thinking wrong. They got more money, more Dev's, and they got the market, they got there fan based built.

You might have the most talent Dev's on the market, but your small, now have a weak reputation, regardless if is true or fair, your label with soe now.
Make the game too easy, then us so called hardcore (funny thing your the ones that always gives us, these labels, we only want a game that is truly challenging) are gone, and I am sure you lose some of the cores with it. Then you left with the rest of the cores and casuals, other games are around the corner, you may have a nice bursts of subs at first, but you wont keep it.
Maybe your right, the genre pool has change so much, that there is no choice.
But at end, i be making my choice, and wont be for a easy game.

After saying all this, I am willing to test, and see your new ideas, with a open mind.


I mean come on, here. That's definitely rude and disrespectful, just like the article says. This guy is basically threatening the dev.

When shit like this goes on and it's apologized for, you gotta KNOW the beta jerk is gonna walk all over you!

Brad, man, turn on the lights! You wanna lose the chance at a decent playerbase because this jerk wants to TELL you how to make a game? I can't believe this.

Very disappointed. First order of business. Can that asshat, quick.

Anonymous said...

Well isn't that some shit Anyen calling this guy a liar. Got this when I asked my friend what's going on and I was told that piece is pretty much the truth. Friend seemed scared to post anything. Refused, in fact. But I did manage to weasle this out of him.

This was pasted first from the dev that I guess was shot down by the beta player. The dev said, supposedly,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nino
For every ONE person that says CRs are needed and somehow hardk0re, there are ONE HUNDRED who completely disagree.


Then I'm told the "worst guy in the place", who can't spell for crap, replied with this scathing threat. Uh, this is the beta player, by the way:

Be very careful, the line your crossing Nino, out of the 100 hundred you talking about how many would you think you win over?

IF/When you cross that line, if you believe that your going to compete against wow, your thinking wrong. They got more money, more Dev's, and they got the market, they got there fan based built.

You might have the most talent Dev's on the market, but your small, now have a weak reputation, regardless if is true or fair, your label with soe now.
Make the game too easy, then us so called hardcore (funny thing your the ones that always gives us, these labels, we only want a game that is truly challenging) are gone, and I am sure you lose some of the cores with it. Then you left with the rest of the cores and casuals, other games are around the corner, you may have a nice bursts of subs at first, but you wont keep it.
Maybe your right, the genre pool has change so much, that there is no choice.
But at end, i be making my choice, and wont be for a easy game.

After saying all this, I am willing to test, and see your new ideas, with a open mind.


I mean come on, here. That's definitely rude and disrespectful, just like the article says. This guy is basically threatening the dev.

When shit like this goes on and it's apologized for, you gotta KNOW the beta jerk is gonna walk all over you!

Brad, man, turn on the lights! You wanna lose the chance at a decent playerbase because this jerk wants to TELL you how to make a game? I can't believe this.

Very disappointed. First order of business. Can that asshat, quick.

Anonymous said...

Looks like Anyen should just shut up before even the silent beta players start proving him the liar instead.

And that's just ONE quote? I can just imagine why that article was written.

Anonymous said...

Looks like Anyen should just shut up before even the silent beta players start proving him the liar instead.

And that's just ONE quote? I can just imagine why that article was written.

Anonymous said...

I can only imagine why.

Maybe Heartless can get an interview with the guy? Not about the game itself but the stupid frigs Brad's been having to deal with.

I bet that dev was holding back frying his character. lol

Anonymous said...

I can only imagine why.

Maybe Heartless can get an interview with the guy? Not about the game itself but the stupid frigs Brad's been having to deal with.

I bet that dev was holding back frying his character. lol

Anonymous said...

Looks like Anyen is now backpedalling. Breaking a sweat yet Anyen? haha

Anonymous said...

Looks like Anyen is now backpedalling. Breaking a sweat yet Anyen? haha

Anonymous said...

I can't post on FoH, it won't let you but Kaxmax replied to Anyen saying, "Lol, are you serious with this? That post was 100% accurate, the beta boards are a fucking cesspool."

Anonymous said...

I can't post on FoH, it won't let you but Kaxmax replied to Anyen saying, "Lol, are you serious with this? That post was 100% accurate, the beta boards are a fucking cesspool."

Anonymous said...

I don't how he does it, but Brad always comes out smelling like a rose in the midst of a pile of shit happening around him. Gotta hand it to the guy. No one is going to blame him for this fuckup.

Anonymous said...

I don't how he does it, but Brad always comes out smelling like a rose in the midst of a pile of shit happening around him. Gotta hand it to the guy. No one is going to blame him for this fuckup.

Anonymous said...

Another friend in beta confirming on AIM now that every bit of that article on Heartless's site is true.

Apparently the posts were reported too, but the beta player is unaware of any action taken and the bully posters continued to beat up on testers.

I'm told if you play WoW and admit it, you're ostracized.

Anonymous said...

Another friend in beta confirming on AIM now that every bit of that article on Heartless's site is true.

Apparently the posts were reported too, but the beta player is unaware of any action taken and the bully posters continued to beat up on testers.

I'm told if you play WoW and admit it, you're ostracized.

Anonymous said...

Like HELL that beta jerk has an "open mind". Did you know he and his buddies went bonkers about a freakin DOT on the map? You know the DOT that shows YOU ARE HERE? Yeah, that dot. These guys went ballistic for 4 freakin pages!!! OVER A DOT!!

yup, that's how bad it is in there.

Anonymous said...

Like HELL that beta jerk has an "open mind". Did you know he and his buddies went bonkers about a freakin DOT on the map? You know the DOT that shows YOU ARE HERE? Yeah, that dot. These guys went ballistic for 4 freakin pages!!! OVER A DOT!!

yup, that's how bad it is in there.

Anonymous said...

Hate to tell that ignoramous, but hardcore has been replaced with funcore for years now, dumbass. It's called technology. 6 million people are stupid?

Would I personally buy a WoW-type game with better graphics? You're damn right I would! I'd buy 2 in fact.

Anonymous said...

Hate to tell that ignoramous, but hardcore has been replaced with funcore for years now, dumbass. It's called technology. 6 million people are stupid?

Would I personally buy a WoW-type game with better graphics? You're damn right I would! I'd buy 2 in fact.

Anonymous said...

Heartless_ said...
I do hope to get this into Brad's hands somehow.


There's no doubt in my mind he's read it and on the phone with Oloh already.

Anonymous said...

Heartless_ said...
I do hope to get this into Brad's hands somehow.


There's no doubt in my mind he's read it and on the phone with Oloh already.

heartlessgamer said...

There is plenty of room in the market for a game with Vanguard's playstyle, but not on Vanguard's budget. This is how more in depth games like EVE Online survive... or non-standard MMOG's survive like Puzzle Pirates. Because they budget for their target audience.

It would be great to get a Shadowbane 2 with the best graphics ever, but realistically there is no that large of a playerbase out there for that game and therefore you can't throw a 100 million at the game and hope for success.

World of Warcraft just finally showed us there were more gamers NOT playing MMORPGs than there was playing them. Games that want a big budget will have to mirror parts of WoW... just as WoW mirrored Everquest and EQ mirrored Dikus prior. WoW was a big step forward for blockbuster titles.

This doesn't mean the smaller titles are doomed, but they better stick to their guns and develop for their core audience. If that core audience is small then you better budget small.

Anonymous said...

Heartless has a point. I don't think Brad has the budget to make Vanguard hold all the bells and whistles of a WoW.

But he created a world that is large enough to hold not only Warcraft's bells and whistles, but Everquest's ding-dongs and Dikus' twinkies.

So the question is, if a budget wouldn't allow for that, why the hell did he make it so damn big? Do you realize how insanely huge this game is? We're talking FOUR continents!

Aside from that, it does look like Brad went with his original targeted audience, only to find out, he had problems holding that audience's attention, even in a beta.

Now did he have a problem because previous fans realized they weren't interested in that theme any longer? Did he have a problem because, anyone remotely likened to WoW-ish concepts was blacklisted and run out the door? Or does he just have a problem because some suggest it's an alpha and not a beta and nothing is done?

Speaking of budgets, does he have a "lifeless and void world" because he ran out of money? That could be it too.

But, here's my impression. Why would he be out there still hyping this game if he had budget problems? That's kind of dumb, so I doubt that's the case.

Surely even he has admitted there were problem with numbers in the beta. Now it comes out those concerns are a reality, but the article blames his fans, not him.

Could it possibly be this article holds some truth in the suggestion that Brad himself, has reconsidered what direction to follow but hasn't entirely made his mind up yet? Could that explain why your writer found the world empty and void of things of interest? I'm trying to paraphrase what was said and doing a bad job, I'm sure.

That's what makes this article so interesting. Many people are probably hoping not. But I'm betting that even more people, are hoping he is having second thoughts.

For Vanguard's sake, he may fare better in at least catering to the hobbyist crowd and denouncing this hardcore theme he's got going. It doesn't look like that niche market is what he thought it would be.

Of course, these are just my opinions and questions, which mean nothing.

I hate assuming anything, but sure would love to see Brad say something about all this instead, after he gets off the phone with Oloh who is probably telling him that due to the leaks, they are throwing them all out of beta. LOL!

Anonymous said...

Heartless has a point. I don't think Brad has the budget to make Vanguard hold all the bells and whistles of a WoW.

But he created a world that is large enough to hold not only Warcraft's bells and whistles, but Everquest's ding-dongs and Dikus' twinkies.

So the question is, if a budget wouldn't allow for that, why the hell did he make it so damn big? Do you realize how insanely huge this game is? We're talking FOUR continents!

Aside from that, it does look like Brad went with his original targeted audience, only to find out, he had problems holding that audience's attention, even in a beta.

Now did he have a problem because previous fans realized they weren't interested in that theme any longer? Did he have a problem because, anyone remotely likened to WoW-ish concepts was blacklisted and run out the door? Or does he just have a problem because some suggest it's an alpha and not a beta and nothing is done?

Speaking of budgets, does he have a "lifeless and void world" because he ran out of money? That could be it too.

But, here's my impression. Why would he be out there still hyping this game if he had budget problems? That's kind of dumb, so I doubt that's the case.

Surely even he has admitted there were problem with numbers in the beta. Now it comes out those concerns are a reality, but the article blames his fans, not him.

Could it possibly be this article holds some truth in the suggestion that Brad himself, has reconsidered what direction to follow but hasn't entirely made his mind up yet? Could that explain why your writer found the world empty and void of things of interest? I'm trying to paraphrase what was said and doing a bad job, I'm sure.

That's what makes this article so interesting. Many people are probably hoping not. But I'm betting that even more people, are hoping he is having second thoughts.

For Vanguard's sake, he may fare better in at least catering to the hobbyist crowd and denouncing this hardcore theme he's got going. It doesn't look like that niche market is what he thought it would be.

Of course, these are just my opinions and questions, which mean nothing.

I hate assuming anything, but sure would love to see Brad say something about all this instead, after he gets off the phone with Oloh who is probably telling him that due to the leaks, they are throwing them all out of beta. LOL!

Anonymous said...

Why the fuck isn't Glip in there clipping that numbnuts dick off that posted that shit to the dev?

Nino showed much restraint. :0/

Anonymous said...

Why the fuck isn't Glip in there clipping that numbnuts dick off that posted that shit to the dev?

Nino showed much restraint. :0/

heartlessgamer said...

For Vanguard's sake, he may fare better in at least catering to the hobbyist crowd and denouncing this hardcore theme he's got going. It doesn't look like that niche market is what he thought it would be.

- He has denounced it as hardcore... it is "challenging". Wonder if he realized his concept of challenging is about as much fun as sending 40 people to Wal Mart to get a Tickle-Me Elmo doll. Fun for all of us watching on TV that is :)

Anonymous said...

There are a few factual inaccuracies in the OP's story, but they are mostly accurate. More important though is that it is literally full of mischaracterizations. You should understand, if you are not in beta, that this is an opinion piece. Sigil could easily remedy the underpopulation problem by inviting more people in. I think it's pretty evident that the random method that they used to get the current tester base was bad, and they have a few hundred core "testers" and a bunch of disgruntled "players." It has been stated that this is the 2nd of 5 or 6 rounds of testing, but the players are demanding a complete game and are leaking like a mofo. If you want to "play" Vanguard, wait a beta round or two to even try. Brad even posted recently that (paraphrasing) "you can't tell what this game is going to be like from it's current state."

Also for clarification, the FAQ is not down, there are happy beta testers, and every single "official" gaming forum that is out there is a cesspool for no-lifers trying to be somebody.

Now let's see if I get shouted down like you accuse the Fanbois of doing to dissenters on the other side of the coin.

Anonymous said...

There are a few factual inaccuracies in the OP's story, but they are mostly accurate. More important though is that it is literally full of mischaracterizations. You should understand, if you are not in beta, that this is an opinion piece. Sigil could easily remedy the underpopulation problem by inviting more people in. I think it's pretty evident that the random method that they used to get the current tester base was bad, and they have a few hundred core "testers" and a bunch of disgruntled "players." It has been stated that this is the 2nd of 5 or 6 rounds of testing, but the players are demanding a complete game and are leaking like a mofo. If you want to "play" Vanguard, wait a beta round or two to even try. Brad even posted recently that (paraphrasing) "you can't tell what this game is going to be like from it's current state."

Also for clarification, the FAQ is not down, there are happy beta testers, and every single "official" gaming forum that is out there is a cesspool for no-lifers trying to be somebody.

Now let's see if I get shouted down like you accuse the Fanbois of doing to dissenters on the other side of the coin.

Anonymous said...

What I think people on that crazy forum at Vanguard forget to realize, is that this guy posted an "excerpt" from his NOTES!

It doesn't even read like he was planning it for anyone. It was reading more like a diary at first.

The way it reads to me is here's a guy who was following that game and having fun doing that. Then in marched all these drama queens and braggarts. Note the way he associates the change with a take-over on Brad's residence. lol.. it's pricelessly funny in an odd sort of way.

Then the part about envisioning Brad either calling the cops or the straight jackets as the only means to get rid of them (haha) indicates this guy is thinking, "Get me the fook outta here!"

This wasn't a drama-seeking article as some of those posters claim. But their responses sure as hell beg for recognition!

And if he were seeking attention, why come here and bury his thoughts down deep into a blog that only Heartless would probably have noticed? Most people do NOT post this type of revealing information in blogs that only hold FOUR responses and is weeks old for drama sake!

It just really rattles my nerves when I read that board and see all the condescending attitudes against this article, dissecting it to pieces. It's probably exactly what he wanted to avoid!

Some of those people have only proven that what was written is TRUE, not false!

No, he came here, not there, because he wanted to share his thoughts where it would possibly do some good, not more harm.

I'd lay odds he never expected this much attention. I'd even lay odds Heartless never thought it would either. That was before they reposted it on their boards and dissected it under the microscope this guy intentionally tried to AVOID!

He could have easily registered a new nick and posted it there, but he didn't. Tells ya something.

Nope, this is meant for Heartless to give to Brad and everyone else be damned, that's what it is. That's the way it reads and that's the way it should be treated.

This article says hey, I'm a beta tester, I've followed your game and was enthused about it but I'm becoming overwhelmed and disheartened by the bullshit in there and you might be too considering the lack of content. Just wash those boards clean and do yourself a mighty favor because it's starting to stink!

Some of those posters over there, not all mind you, should be slapped and I think that's the message here. This guy was trying to do the job he was picked to do. But I don't think he cares anymore. Rather, I think he's pretty disgusted.

It shows that people are getting outraged at the unbelievable authority some think they hold, over a silly game.

It's just SAD that he felt no other way to get this message across, was find someone disassociated with the project because they were the only sane ones he could find to speak through.

And I think it's terrible that he probably fears being sued too considering the NDA. But taking into account the way they act over there, I don't blame him for being precautious as to what to expect.

Oh well, I need coffee now :)

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

What I think people on that crazy forum at Vanguard forget to realize, is that this guy posted an "excerpt" from his NOTES!

It doesn't even read like he was planning it for anyone. It was reading more like a diary at first.

The way it reads to me is here's a guy who was following that game and having fun doing that. Then in marched all these drama queens and braggarts. Note the way he associates the change with a take-over on Brad's residence. lol.. it's pricelessly funny in an odd sort of way.

Then the part about envisioning Brad either calling the cops or the straight jackets as the only means to get rid of them (haha) indicates this guy is thinking, "Get me the fook outta here!"

This wasn't a drama-seeking article as some of those posters claim. But their responses sure as hell beg for recognition!

And if he were seeking attention, why come here and bury his thoughts down deep into a blog that only Heartless would probably have noticed? Most people do NOT post this type of revealing information in blogs that only hold FOUR responses and is weeks old for drama sake!

It just really rattles my nerves when I read that board and see all the condescending attitudes against this article, dissecting it to pieces. It's probably exactly what he wanted to avoid!

Some of those people have only proven that what was written is TRUE, not false!

No, he came here, not there, because he wanted to share his thoughts where it would possibly do some good, not more harm.

I'd lay odds he never expected this much attention. I'd even lay odds Heartless never thought it would either. That was before they reposted it on their boards and dissected it under the microscope this guy intentionally tried to AVOID!

He could have easily registered a new nick and posted it there, but he didn't. Tells ya something.

Nope, this is meant for Heartless to give to Brad and everyone else be damned, that's what it is. That's the way it reads and that's the way it should be treated.

This article says hey, I'm a beta tester, I've followed your game and was enthused about it but I'm becoming overwhelmed and disheartened by the bullshit in there and you might be too considering the lack of content. Just wash those boards clean and do yourself a mighty favor because it's starting to stink!

Some of those posters over there, not all mind you, should be slapped and I think that's the message here. This guy was trying to do the job he was picked to do. But I don't think he cares anymore. Rather, I think he's pretty disgusted.

It shows that people are getting outraged at the unbelievable authority some think they hold, over a silly game.

It's just SAD that he felt no other way to get this message across, was find someone disassociated with the project because they were the only sane ones he could find to speak through.

And I think it's terrible that he probably fears being sued too considering the NDA. But taking into account the way they act over there, I don't blame him for being precautious as to what to expect.

Oh well, I need coffee now :)

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

To the poster above me, I too, checked that FAQ. It was either moved or taken down, because the page was not there when I checked either. Obviously, that was his point. I'm curious as to why it was moved at all? Someone couldn't find it where it supposedly had been 'all those years'.

I don't see your proof that this article has any misleading or misinformation.

Back to coffee..

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

To the poster above me, I too, checked that FAQ. It was either moved or taken down, because the page was not there when I checked either. Obviously, that was his point. I'm curious as to why it was moved at all? Someone couldn't find it where it supposedly had been 'all those years'.

I don't see your proof that this article has any misleading or misinformation.

Back to coffee..

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

I really need to get off my bum and register. That was me in the above post.

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

I really need to get off my bum and register. That was me in the above post.

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

Ok, let me have coffee and read what FoH has to say. Looks like Itzena has reposted this into a separate thread.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/22627-vanguards-serious-problem-fans.html

Where's Brad? lol

Anonymous said...

Ok, let me have coffee and read what FoH has to say. Looks like Itzena has reposted this into a separate thread.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/22627-vanguards-serious-problem-fans.html

Where's Brad? lol

Anonymous said...

"I don't see your proof that this article has any misleading or misinformation."

First of all, I never said it was "misleading or misinformation." I said it was a mischaracterization, there is a big difference.

Second, there isn't going to be any "proof," since unlike the person who published this, I respect my NDA enough not to post that kind of detail in a public forum. This will be my last post here, since I do want to continue to honor that commitment, but here you can see that the Vanguard forums are not the only place to get shouted down in a short time by someone with an agenda.

/wave

Anonymous said...

"I don't see your proof that this article has any misleading or misinformation."

First of all, I never said it was "misleading or misinformation." I said it was a mischaracterization, there is a big difference.

Second, there isn't going to be any "proof," since unlike the person who published this, I respect my NDA enough not to post that kind of detail in a public forum. This will be my last post here, since I do want to continue to honor that commitment, but here you can see that the Vanguard forums are not the only place to get shouted down in a short time by someone with an agenda.

/wave

Anonymous said...

I love people who put words that mean the same thing under the microscope and then claim there's a big difference.

Look, if you have something to say, say it! Don't sit there and claim you're in beta so you can't. If you really felt that way you wouldn't haven't posted at all.

You detoured that article to bring out something about where the FAQ was moved? This is exactly what's wrong with you people. You couldn't find the meaning behind that article if it hit you upside the head like a lead brick. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would take away that it's the FAQ that was the bible in there and anyone who said otherwise, was beaten down like fools.

But if you want to harp on it, the fact remains that I looked for it too, and it was not where one would think to find it, like the FAQ link perhaps?

I think it's humorous you think people here have an agenda when all they are doing is commenting on the obvious. I'm not even registered on Vanguard, FYI. I read Heartless and gaming reviews. There's no agenda other than passing the time during coffee. Rather boring, huh? Sorry to disappoint. :(

But continue on with your pompous attitude that you're in beta, therefore you know better then us all but can't kiss and tell.

It may come as quite the shock, but I so do not envy you.

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

I love people who put words that mean the same thing under the microscope and then claim there's a big difference.

Look, if you have something to say, say it! Don't sit there and claim you're in beta so you can't. If you really felt that way you wouldn't haven't posted at all.

You detoured that article to bring out something about where the FAQ was moved? This is exactly what's wrong with you people. You couldn't find the meaning behind that article if it hit you upside the head like a lead brick. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would take away that it's the FAQ that was the bible in there and anyone who said otherwise, was beaten down like fools.

But if you want to harp on it, the fact remains that I looked for it too, and it was not where one would think to find it, like the FAQ link perhaps?

I think it's humorous you think people here have an agenda when all they are doing is commenting on the obvious. I'm not even registered on Vanguard, FYI. I read Heartless and gaming reviews. There's no agenda other than passing the time during coffee. Rather boring, huh? Sorry to disappoint. :(

But continue on with your pompous attitude that you're in beta, therefore you know better then us all but can't kiss and tell.

It may come as quite the shock, but I so do not envy you.

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

Second, there isn't going to be any "proof," since unlike the person who published this, I respect my NDA enough not to post that kind of detail in a public forum.

You already did, so join the club, moron. If the opinion about mere beta testers in there is enough for you to warrant being an NDA breaker, then you're opinion about the writer is just as bad. Since according to you, you're not supposed to be even giving opinions about the testers either, which is basically the bulk of that article.

Pot, meet kettle.

-- Vertigo

Anonymous said...

Second, there isn't going to be any "proof," since unlike the person who published this, I respect my NDA enough not to post that kind of detail in a public forum.

You already did, so join the club, moron. If the opinion about mere beta testers in there is enough for you to warrant being an NDA breaker, then you're opinion about the writer is just as bad. Since according to you, you're not supposed to be even giving opinions about the testers either, which is basically the bulk of that article.

Pot, meet kettle.

-- Vertigo

Anonymous said...

Time for popcorn yet?

VG boards are now crucifying the OP of that article for not adhering to the FAQ.

Now I ask, where the FUCK did that guy ever write anything about disagreeing or agreeing with the FAQ?

Some people just don't know how to fucking read.

Glad I'm not part of that mess over there.

They hate WoW? They have no clue how much they sound exactly like WoW boards. Any respectable subscriber of WoW knows you don't post there if you want to be taken seriously -- or keep your sanity.

Bustamove

Anonymous said...

Time for popcorn yet?

VG boards are now crucifying the OP of that article for not adhering to the FAQ.

Now I ask, where the FUCK did that guy ever write anything about disagreeing or agreeing with the FAQ?

Some people just don't know how to fucking read.

Glad I'm not part of that mess over there.

They hate WoW? They have no clue how much they sound exactly like WoW boards. Any respectable subscriber of WoW knows you don't post there if you want to be taken seriously -- or keep your sanity.

Bustamove

Anonymous said...

"This is War! I have my plate mail on and my great sword in hand, and I will stand as best I can against the Hordes of Grey*. It wont be easy though, for they are many."

Jacquelyn needs a fucking valium.

Anonymous said...

"This is War! I have my plate mail on and my great sword in hand, and I will stand as best I can against the Hordes of Grey*. It wont be easy though, for they are many."

Jacquelyn needs a fucking valium.

Tide said...

This is a great note. It's not written by an illiterate, and it doesn't have any Beta specific issues to violate the NDA. Unless the overall morale of a Beta is also under censure. It's basically saying: "this beta *seems* to be under bad management because there has been persistent FUD about the title since announcement. And the process to aid in the Beta is being overwhelmed by inappropriate communications." That's it. There are no facts, just the mapping anecodte and the perception of management activities from their forum postings. Otherwise, it's just a weather report from another immature gaming forum. If anything, the person running the boards and the Beta should be blamed on the ranty/signal-noise ratio problem. But I agree with the OP: the tone of the Beta is set by Brad and his team. They have a responsibility to help themselves and their reasonable Beta testers by keeping people well informed (to avoid misunderstandings) and kicking out the psychos (whether pro or con). Thanks.

Anonymous said...

I think some people fail to realize that being a beta-tester can become more job-like then they imagined.

You go in thinking you're testing a game, only to find out you're testing your patience and biting your tongue so you don't get fired, sued or ripped apart by your peers.

When these events happen, and they do, people wind up putting in their notes what this article has shown. It's a way for them to vent their disapproval with the beta system and what they've encountered there.

Betas do take their toll. Anyone who criticizes someone who has felt the bite is not being fair and I would disclude them from being any type of prospective beta tester. They've already shown they have no respect for the people they may be playing with and are willing to callously hang them out to dry. Just read the VG boards and it should suffice how ruthless they are. These are the people you would definitely not want in your beta. They are immature and care nothing about anyone's feelings but their own.

I would say the beta would probably do best with guild/group friend invites and just start over, because as it stands right now, even /ooc is enough to turn off anyone from grouping with the maniacs. It's a chat session that makes you feel like you've landed in the world of fucktards.

TED

Anonymous said...

I think some people fail to realize that being a beta-tester can become more job-like then they imagined.

You go in thinking you're testing a game, only to find out you're testing your patience and biting your tongue so you don't get fired, sued or ripped apart by your peers.

When these events happen, and they do, people wind up putting in their notes what this article has shown. It's a way for them to vent their disapproval with the beta system and what they've encountered there.

Betas do take their toll. Anyone who criticizes someone who has felt the bite is not being fair and I would disclude them from being any type of prospective beta tester. They've already shown they have no respect for the people they may be playing with and are willing to callously hang them out to dry. Just read the VG boards and it should suffice how ruthless they are. These are the people you would definitely not want in your beta. They are immature and care nothing about anyone's feelings but their own.

I would say the beta would probably do best with guild/group friend invites and just start over, because as it stands right now, even /ooc is enough to turn off anyone from grouping with the maniacs. It's a chat session that makes you feel like you've landed in the world of fucktards.

TED

Anonymous said...

Nirvana,

I just went to the Vanguard home page and clicked on the FAQ link there and it took me to the FAQ.

And to think you called that other guy a moron.

Anonymous said...

Nirvana,

I just went to the Vanguard home page and clicked on the FAQ link there and it took me to the FAQ.

And to think you called that other guy a moron.

Anonymous said...

It wasn't there when I checked yesterday, either. So ask Sigil but she's not lying. It was not there. You don't think Sigil hasn't read this and made note about the FAQ missing page?

It's also quite possible that when the OP of that article wrote it, it was nowhere to be found. Presumably why he imagined that perhaps Brad was reconsidering and aiming in a new direction.

All quite innocent events, but do not warrant calling people liars over. There would be no reason for them to tell tall tales over a lousy link missing.

When I checked myself, the page was definitely gone.

TED

Anonymous said...

It wasn't there when I checked yesterday, either. So ask Sigil but she's not lying. It was not there. You don't think Sigil hasn't read this and made note about the FAQ missing page?

It's also quite possible that when the OP of that article wrote it, it was nowhere to be found. Presumably why he imagined that perhaps Brad was reconsidering and aiming in a new direction.

All quite innocent events, but do not warrant calling people liars over. There would be no reason for them to tell tall tales over a lousy link missing.

When I checked myself, the page was definitely gone.

TED

Anonymous said...

I'm the one who called him a moron. ;p

-- Vertigo

Anonymous said...

I'm the one who called him a moron. ;p

-- Vertigo

Anonymous said...

Interesting how these blogs are gaining more and more popularity.

It strikes me as a journalistic venue that is now obtaining feedback from reputable sources. Before you go faulting the source, read the article. This man or woman is no illiterate.

The problem with blogs I have, is that you're all so scattered. I mean I wadded through 15 different bloggers just to see if this OP posted somewhere again. Couldn't find it either.

Suggestion - Why don't you bloggers make a main website, add all your weekly doo-dads there so we can all find ONE place to signup and read.

I HATE running around the web but I do enjoy a lot of the reviews.

I also HATE immature fansites and you can't post on FoH anymore.

So Heartless, man. Think about this. I really like the idea. I wouldn't even care if you had to put up some ads to pay for it.

Ephemeral

Anonymous said...

Interesting how these blogs are gaining more and more popularity.

It strikes me as a journalistic venue that is now obtaining feedback from reputable sources. Before you go faulting the source, read the article. This man or woman is no illiterate.

The problem with blogs I have, is that you're all so scattered. I mean I wadded through 15 different bloggers just to see if this OP posted somewhere again. Couldn't find it either.

Suggestion - Why don't you bloggers make a main website, add all your weekly doo-dads there so we can all find ONE place to signup and read.

I HATE running around the web but I do enjoy a lot of the reviews.

I also HATE immature fansites and you can't post on FoH anymore.

So Heartless, man. Think about this. I really like the idea. I wouldn't even care if you had to put up some ads to pay for it.

Ephemeral

Anonymous said...

- 1.6.2.1 Who is your target audience?

Our goal is to be as inclusionary as possible, but at the same time to not alienate existing, core MMOG gamers.

First and foremost, we want to appeal to gamers who have enjoyed the games we've worked on in the past. Then we want to expand outward and appeal to other core gamers with new and extended gameplay they might have found missing in previous games. Lastly, we want to grow the MMOG gamespace by appealing to 'non-core' gamers, but, again, never at the expense of the playerbase who already identifies with our goals and our previous work.


Unless this has been re-written, it seems to me Sigil covered all bases with that one.

I can see the hardcorers interpreting it their way though.

Anonymous said...

- 1.6.2.1 Who is your target audience?

Our goal is to be as inclusionary as possible, but at the same time to not alienate existing, core MMOG gamers.

First and foremost, we want to appeal to gamers who have enjoyed the games we've worked on in the past. Then we want to expand outward and appeal to other core gamers with new and extended gameplay they might have found missing in previous games. Lastly, we want to grow the MMOG gamespace by appealing to 'non-core' gamers, but, again, never at the expense of the playerbase who already identifies with our goals and our previous work.


Unless this has been re-written, it seems to me Sigil covered all bases with that one.

I can see the hardcorers interpreting it their way though.

Anonymous said...

How the hell can you say you intend to be as inclusory as possible but not at the expensive of your fanbois?

No wonder they've got problems. Out of one side of his mouth, he's promising fun for all, out of the other, he's promising loyalty to the cause.

The de facto standard demands compliance while the casual sits there wondering why the fuck they got invited at all.

Anonymous said...

How the hell can you say you intend to be as inclusory as possible but not at the expensive of your fanbois?

No wonder they've got problems. Out of one side of his mouth, he's promising fun for all, out of the other, he's promising loyalty to the cause.

The de facto standard demands compliance while the casual sits there wondering why the fuck they got invited at all.

Anonymous said...

Heh, now we get to the real reason for the confusion (above post).

Aside from the confusion, everyone forgets to mention how the OP didn't see much of a game at all.

Pity? Yes. Did he say he even perceived a game design though? Nope.

He said that people recognized the ink wasn't even dry on the blueprint. Smells like work in progress to me, but hey, I didn't write it.

The OP had respect for Brad's property but wasn't saying he recognized a quality game here. Far from it from where the glasses sit on my nose.

He said Brad was capable. He didn't say Brad pulled off what he may be capable of.

There's a lot of doubt in that article.

Maybe Brad should start with clarifying what his target audience is. But maybe the OP is right. Maybe he doesn't even know and therefore doesn't want to box himself in.

It would explain why much of the "3gen stuff" isn't there to test and the "sekret sauce" is still a secret, to everyone.

Chris

Anonymous said...

Heh, now we get to the real reason for the confusion (above post).

Aside from the confusion, everyone forgets to mention how the OP didn't see much of a game at all.

Pity? Yes. Did he say he even perceived a game design though? Nope.

He said that people recognized the ink wasn't even dry on the blueprint. Smells like work in progress to me, but hey, I didn't write it.

The OP had respect for Brad's property but wasn't saying he recognized a quality game here. Far from it from where the glasses sit on my nose.

He said Brad was capable. He didn't say Brad pulled off what he may be capable of.

There's a lot of doubt in that article.

Maybe Brad should start with clarifying what his target audience is. But maybe the OP is right. Maybe he doesn't even know and therefore doesn't want to box himself in.

It would explain why much of the "3gen stuff" isn't there to test and the "sekret sauce" is still a secret, to everyone.

Chris

Anonymous said...

http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54678&page=3

Jacquelyn on the VG boards is a prime example of a person who demands to see the vision her way.

Truth is, that FAQ can be taken either way. Hardcore or casual. It's catering to everyone and saying, BUY ME!

Her ending remarks just show her stupidity. She's be one of the first ones to throw people out the door with a "go play WoW" remark. Holier than thou imbeciles VG should just get rid of before they end up making themselves look equally stupid as she does.

Anonymous said...

http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54678&page=3

Jacquelyn on the VG boards is a prime example of a person who demands to see the vision her way.

Truth is, that FAQ can be taken either way. Hardcore or casual. It's catering to everyone and saying, BUY ME!

Her ending remarks just show her stupidity. She's be one of the first ones to throw people out the door with a "go play WoW" remark. Holier than thou imbeciles VG should just get rid of before they end up making themselves look equally stupid as she does.

Anonymous said...

I've seen this before. They keep telling people to go play WOW long enough and that's exactly what they'll wind up doing.

Who the fuck needs that shit? Fuck it. Play the game yourself, bitch.

Do they have any clue how psychotic they sound to the average reader? Scarey shit when they cling to an FAQ like the words from Sun-Yung-Moon.

Anonymous said...

I've seen this before. They keep telling people to go play WOW long enough and that's exactly what they'll wind up doing.

Who the fuck needs that shit? Fuck it. Play the game yourself, bitch.

Do they have any clue how psychotic they sound to the average reader? Scarey shit when they cling to an FAQ like the words from Sun-Yung-Moon.

Anonymous said...

HAHA, this is fucking hilarious -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacquelyn
Many of them can be found RIGHT HERE http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php, smart guy.

The game described in that FAQ (made up of specific DEVELOPER QUOTES on just about every game issue under the Sun) is the game I am looking forward to playing.

I know Vanguard will require tweaks while it is in Beta, and that some concepts are not fully fleshed out in that FAQ (and are thereby sekret sauce or in the realm of Beta-Only now under NDA), but the concepts that are, and the overarching Vision(tm) behind them, are sound.

Go change someone elses game... =P




And Xelloss responds,

So why are the 'fans' on the beta boards flaming Sigil devs when the devs suggest changes, then?

GOOD POINT! You win the parley! bwahahhahaha

Anonymous said...

HAHA, this is fucking hilarious -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacquelyn
Many of them can be found RIGHT HERE http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php, smart guy.

The game described in that FAQ (made up of specific DEVELOPER QUOTES on just about every game issue under the Sun) is the game I am looking forward to playing.

I know Vanguard will require tweaks while it is in Beta, and that some concepts are not fully fleshed out in that FAQ (and are thereby sekret sauce or in the realm of Beta-Only now under NDA), but the concepts that are, and the overarching Vision(tm) behind them, are sound.

Go change someone elses game... =P




And Xelloss responds,

So why are the 'fans' on the beta boards flaming Sigil devs when the devs suggest changes, then?

GOOD POINT! You win the parley! bwahahhahaha

Anonymous said...

wait.. wait.. she has a comeback. Ready.. steady.. aim..

Originally Posted by Jacquelyn
All I can say after reading the OP is, if true:


To be perfectly honest, I won't fully believe any of these NDA breaking whiners/leaky whingers until I see what it is they are talking about with MY OWN EYES.

So, in answer to your question, I don't necessarily know that there are "'fans' on the beta boards flaming Sigil devs"...


.. and Strike three!

She's out. Lost any chance of getting into beta now with that sneaky little maneuver to wiggle her way in. lol

Anonymous said...

wait.. wait.. she has a comeback. Ready.. steady.. aim..

Originally Posted by Jacquelyn
All I can say after reading the OP is, if true:


To be perfectly honest, I won't fully believe any of these NDA breaking whiners/leaky whingers until I see what it is they are talking about with MY OWN EYES.

So, in answer to your question, I don't necessarily know that there are "'fans' on the beta boards flaming Sigil devs"...


.. and Strike three!

She's out. Lost any chance of getting into beta now with that sneaky little maneuver to wiggle her way in. lol

Anonymous said...

I told you before, the girl needs valium. Her and about half that thread are typical of what's outlined in that article.

Chris

Anonymous said...

I told you before, the girl needs valium. Her and about half that thread are typical of what's outlined in that article.

Chris

Anonymous said...

I don't know why anyone wastes their time trying to reason with them.

Noble, but futile.

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

I don't know why anyone wastes their time trying to reason with them.

Noble, but futile.

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

I know. You would think they would be embarrassed to be labelled as the groupies they are. But heck no! They're proud to be Vanbois.

bahhhh...sheep!

Chris

Anonymous said...

I know. You would think they would be embarrassed to be labelled as the groupies they are. But heck no! They're proud to be Vanbois.

bahhhh...sheep!

Chris

heartlessgamer said...

Emphereal it's called bloglines or blog search engins like Technorati or Google Blogs.

All of these work wonders to search blogs for relative information.

Also a good bit of bloggers post news to news.virginworlds.com.

Enjoy!

Anonymous said...

Ok, it's my turn to jump on this computer. Everyone else isn't working and I haven't had lunch.

All I have to say is........

HEARTLESS, you've started a riot! ROFL

Love,

Renee

Anonymous said...

Ok, it's my turn to jump on this computer. Everyone else isn't working and I haven't had lunch.

All I have to say is........

HEARTLESS, you've started a riot! ROFL

Love,

Renee

Anonymous said...

I bet you a ration and 2 waterskins that McQuaid won't be posting a reply until all the votes are in and the flames are almost out.

That could take awhile, however. heh

-- Vertigo

Anonymous said...

I bet you a ration and 2 waterskins that McQuaid won't be posting a reply until all the votes are in and the flames are almost out.

That could take awhile, however. heh

-- Vertigo

Anonymous said...

This one, posted by Jait on FoH's boards. What can I say? Superbly written! Explains the dilemma of what the OP might be experiencing and reaches in for the cause.

Well done! With a good understanding and grasp of the particulars. Bravo!

Chris

Vanguards beta is filled to the brim with fanbois. Any objective player pretty much bailed months ago.

So, actually blaming the fans, for once, is right on. Who woulda thunk it?

When all your left with is the sycophantic 'kool-aid' kids, the results are going to reflect that. Even worse, they're setting themselves up for a colossal failure by relying almost entirely on that part of the playerbase. (which by the by, will be the first to flee come release time). Then what are you left with? The game itself, judged on it's own merits.

It's not rocket science.
A) Make the game fun
B) Move on to the things you want to personally see accomplished.

Instead Brad has that reversed. He's almost like a guy saying: If I build it, they will come! Fuck it. I don't care if the game succeeds as long as it has "Teh Vision".

There's too many options nowadays. Utnayan hit the nail on the head for once with that observation. Another thing that has not been pointed out, or said nearly enough, is that EQ *MISSED* much of it's demographic. Many people in their mid to late 20s and early 30s would have loved to play EQ. But it was far too time consuming for them. Much of the growth in MMOs have been the kids growing from console to PC yes. But another part of it was older players waiting for a more casual game to play. 10 million people did not pop out of the woodwork one day and say "We Love Blizzard."

Blizzard simply met the challenge perfectly, and dominated by hitting every demographic they could and rejecting the belief that casual isn't fun or lasting. This was a mistake to many hard-core people. Yes, a mistake to the tune of roughly 120 million dollars a month in revenue. Vanguard biggest mistake seems to be catering to an even smaller demographic than EQ1 did, and that's bad news from a guy who claims the MMO market doesn't need anymore 30 million dollar failures. So damn true, and yet oddly ironic.

The biggest thing I'm looking forward to now with Vanguard is the enormous amount of spin that is yet to come.

Anonymous said...

This one, posted by Jait on FoH's boards. What can I say? Superbly written! Explains the dilemma of what the OP might be experiencing and reaches in for the cause.

Well done! With a good understanding and grasp of the particulars. Bravo!

Chris

Vanguards beta is filled to the brim with fanbois. Any objective player pretty much bailed months ago.

So, actually blaming the fans, for once, is right on. Who woulda thunk it?

When all your left with is the sycophantic 'kool-aid' kids, the results are going to reflect that. Even worse, they're setting themselves up for a colossal failure by relying almost entirely on that part of the playerbase. (which by the by, will be the first to flee come release time). Then what are you left with? The game itself, judged on it's own merits.

It's not rocket science.
A) Make the game fun
B) Move on to the things you want to personally see accomplished.

Instead Brad has that reversed. He's almost like a guy saying: If I build it, they will come! Fuck it. I don't care if the game succeeds as long as it has "Teh Vision".

There's too many options nowadays. Utnayan hit the nail on the head for once with that observation. Another thing that has not been pointed out, or said nearly enough, is that EQ *MISSED* much of it's demographic. Many people in their mid to late 20s and early 30s would have loved to play EQ. But it was far too time consuming for them. Much of the growth in MMOs have been the kids growing from console to PC yes. But another part of it was older players waiting for a more casual game to play. 10 million people did not pop out of the woodwork one day and say "We Love Blizzard."

Blizzard simply met the challenge perfectly, and dominated by hitting every demographic they could and rejecting the belief that casual isn't fun or lasting. This was a mistake to many hard-core people. Yes, a mistake to the tune of roughly 120 million dollars a month in revenue. Vanguard biggest mistake seems to be catering to an even smaller demographic than EQ1 did, and that's bad news from a guy who claims the MMO market doesn't need anymore 30 million dollar failures. So damn true, and yet oddly ironic.

The biggest thing I'm looking forward to now with Vanguard is the enormous amount of spin that is yet to come.

Anonymous said...

Utnayan missed the boat to Freeport when the OP of the original article cited the problems in the game itself.

Utnayan would have people believe the OP didn't see anything wrong with Vanguard itself.

The OP may have not been specific, but it's not rocket science to determine the bad vibes that were written. Words such as "void", "lifeless", "imagined wonderful Vanguard...is a contrived line of bullshit". These are words that reflect how much this OP enjoyed the show?

Utnayan may have hit the nail on the head with Jait's point, but he missed it completely when he was faulting the original OP for solely blaming the beta boards for Vanguard's problems.

He also did imply this was a setup by Sigil to deter any negativity placed upon them and put it on the shoulders of the beta players. Regardless if he retracted that spin in his followup remarks.

The original OP posted an unbiased article, hands down. Maybe that's why they're all so upset.

No one knows where to place the blame anymore?


Mark Cantor

Anonymous said...

Utnayan missed the boat to Freeport when the OP of the original article cited the problems in the game itself.

Utnayan would have people believe the OP didn't see anything wrong with Vanguard itself.

The OP may have not been specific, but it's not rocket science to determine the bad vibes that were written. Words such as "void", "lifeless", "imagined wonderful Vanguard...is a contrived line of bullshit". These are words that reflect how much this OP enjoyed the show?

Utnayan may have hit the nail on the head with Jait's point, but he missed it completely when he was faulting the original OP for solely blaming the beta boards for Vanguard's problems.

He also did imply this was a setup by Sigil to deter any negativity placed upon them and put it on the shoulders of the beta players. Regardless if he retracted that spin in his followup remarks.

The original OP posted an unbiased article, hands down. Maybe that's why they're all so upset.

No one knows where to place the blame anymore?


Mark Cantor

Anonymous said...

Found another for you over at another blog, Heartless.

http://tidehorizon.blogspot.com/2006/05/live-online-service-testing-forum-wars.html

Rather technical, but interesting.

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

Found another for you over at another blog, Heartless.

http://tidehorizon.blogspot.com/2006/05/live-online-service-testing-forum-wars.html

Rather technical, but interesting.

Nirvana

Anonymous said...

Here's a couple blurbs from my favorite Vanboi asshole, his name is Grax.

In response to a thread about the in-game map having a "You Are Here" dot where some tester dared to go against the vanboi collective and say they liked the feature:


"And so the beta testers stepped back for a moment and looked at their wond'rous creation. The carebears smiled, the achievers rejoiced, the casual players with amazing real lives hurrah'd, and all held hands and shouted: "Yay for WoWguard!"

The true explorers and competent players looking for a game that might be worthy of their attention kept huddled in the corner, aware that they had suffered yet another defeat. A few more battles lost to the McDonalds-loving WoW-indoctrinated players, and the game would have to be abandoned to rot in its own filth."


Same thread, this time he felt compelled to take a WoW player who was bold enough to post down a peg or three:

"If I had more respect for the average person on this board I would guess that this is a troll...

It will be interesting to see how much of Vanguard gets torn away by the newbie vultures. Unfortunately, many of us knew that newbies have been designing MMOGs for a while now, so we can't really say that Vanguard will end up being all that much of a lesson."

Makes you wonder what his credentials are, no? Clearly he's not a newbie like the rest of us! Ahh, his next post makes it clear -- he read Bartle's article. Perhaps read isn't the right word, it seems more like his religion:

"MMOGs are being designed by the collective bad taste of newbies. Richard Bartle's article on the subject is required reading for anyone who dislikes WoW (or some other recent MMOG) and is wondering why it is the way it is. The article gets mentioned a lot on boards like this one because it is so horrifyingly pertinent.

There are two main types of players on display in this particular thread: those who welcome automation and those who don't. There are those who want the player to have to interact and adapt to the game world, and then there are those who want the game world to adapt to their individual preferences ("I don't play to trade! I don't play to figure out where I am in the game world!").

In the end, a designer tries to make a game fun for some hypothetical playstyle, and tries to make it fun for as many playstyles as possible. However, one cannot accommodate every single playstyle, and sometimes there are clashes. What we see in this thread is that there are people on both sides of the issue. Someone at the top will have to decide: "Do I want a game that people with a bad playstyle will enjoy? I could cater to folks that only want to raid on some mobs and have the rest of the gameplay be completely linear and automated, Dungeon Siege style... or I could have a more open game where the player is forced to actually get involved in the game world, where he is not fed all the relevant information through an ezmodetube. Hmm, this choice is more difficult than that time I was given a magical ticket for a free meal and couldn't decide whether I wanted to eat garbage or something tasty."

I am thoroughly amused at the number of posters I see every day on these boards who have never been educated in thought, cannot analyze an entire gameworld, have terrible terrible taste, and basically say: "Please make this game trash! I will not be satisfied until I taste garbage!"


Remember kids, if you're not playing Grax's way, your playstyle is BAD.

I can only hope that every single feature he hates is added to VG, so that he quits the game (and possibly life?) when he finally realizes that it "might not be the game" for him.

Anonymous said...

Here's a couple blurbs from my favorite Vanboi asshole, his name is Grax.

In response to a thread about the in-game map having a "You Are Here" dot where some tester dared to go against the vanboi collective and say they liked the feature:


"And so the beta testers stepped back for a moment and looked at their wond'rous creation. The carebears smiled, the achievers rejoiced, the casual players with amazing real lives hurrah'd, and all held hands and shouted: "Yay for WoWguard!"

The true explorers and competent players looking for a game that might be worthy of their attention kept huddled in the corner, aware that they had suffered yet another defeat. A few more battles lost to the McDonalds-loving WoW-indoctrinated players, and the game would have to be abandoned to rot in its own filth."


Same thread, this time he felt compelled to take a WoW player who was bold enough to post down a peg or three:

"If I had more respect for the average person on this board I would guess that this is a troll...

It will be interesting to see how much of Vanguard gets torn away by the newbie vultures. Unfortunately, many of us knew that newbies have been designing MMOGs for a while now, so we can't really say that Vanguard will end up being all that much of a lesson."

Makes you wonder what his credentials are, no? Clearly he's not a newbie like the rest of us! Ahh, his next post makes it clear -- he read Bartle's article. Perhaps read isn't the right word, it seems more like his religion:

"MMOGs are being designed by the collective bad taste of newbies. Richard Bartle's article on the subject is required reading for anyone who dislikes WoW (or some other recent MMOG) and is wondering why it is the way it is. The article gets mentioned a lot on boards like this one because it is so horrifyingly pertinent.

There are two main types of players on display in this particular thread: those who welcome automation and those who don't. There are those who want the player to have to interact and adapt to the game world, and then there are those who want the game world to adapt to their individual preferences ("I don't play to trade! I don't play to figure out where I am in the game world!").

In the end, a designer tries to make a game fun for some hypothetical playstyle, and tries to make it fun for as many playstyles as possible. However, one cannot accommodate every single playstyle, and sometimes there are clashes. What we see in this thread is that there are people on both sides of the issue. Someone at the top will have to decide: "Do I want a game that people with a bad playstyle will enjoy? I could cater to folks that only want to raid on some mobs and have the rest of the gameplay be completely linear and automated, Dungeon Siege style... or I could have a more open game where the player is forced to actually get involved in the game world, where he is not fed all the relevant information through an ezmodetube. Hmm, this choice is more difficult than that time I was given a magical ticket for a free meal and couldn't decide whether I wanted to eat garbage or something tasty."

I am thoroughly amused at the number of posters I see every day on these boards who have never been educated in thought, cannot analyze an entire gameworld, have terrible terrible taste, and basically say: "Please make this game trash! I will not be satisfied until I taste garbage!"


Remember kids, if you're not playing Grax's way, your playstyle is BAD.

I can only hope that every single feature he hates is added to VG, so that he quits the game (and possibly life?) when he finally realizes that it "might not be the game" for him.

heartlessgamer said...

Wow... that Grax needs to re-read most of what Bartle has ever said. I hate to see names like that dragged through the mud. What Bartle has said needs no interpretation from someone else... you simply quote it and let it stand on its own merit. Because Bartle writes a good defense and is unbiased. Unfortunately we can't say the same for poor Grax.

Anonymous said...

Grax's profile

Check out the "Highest Character in an MMOG:" section. L51 Assling Dr00d, now that's impressive.


On that note, I'll give poor Grax a rest. The scary part is there's about 10-15 others just like him, and many more who "me too" whatever they say.

Anonymous said...

Grax's profile

Check out the "Highest Character in an MMOG:" section. L51 Assling Dr00d, now that's impressive.


On that note, I'll give poor Grax a rest. The scary part is there's about 10-15 others just like him, and many more who "me too" whatever they say.

Anonymous said...

You may want to check out Grax's website in his profile. It leads to a page where he claims to be Fizloki. So you've got two of the same personas in your beta then pretending to be one person?, if that is true.

My source is a friend from AIM. It seems quite a few people noticed that. Probably due to the personality, no doubt.

Let me look here. Ok, you've got a blog post, second down, that reads:

"* For my view on the destruction of true exploration in WoW, consider http://freedomgreg.blogspot.com (search for "Fizloki")"

But the website is supposedly from Grax, noted here: http://freedomgreg.blogspot.com/

And your base is claiming you've got both a Grax and a Fizloki in your beta.

WTF?

Were you aware of this? Any truth here?

Anonymous said...

You may want to check out Grax's website in his profile. It leads to a page where he claims to be Fizloki. So you've got two of the same personas in your beta then pretending to be one person?, if that is true.

My source is a friend from AIM. It seems quite a few people noticed that. Probably due to the personality, no doubt.

Let me look here. Ok, you've got a blog post, second down, that reads:

"* For my view on the destruction of true exploration in WoW, consider http://freedomgreg.blogspot.com (search for "Fizloki")"

But the website is supposedly from Grax, noted here: http://freedomgreg.blogspot.com/

And your base is claiming you've got both a Grax and a Fizloki in your beta.

WTF?

Were you aware of this? Any truth here?

Anonymous said...

It's late, I wrote that wrong and can't edit it. You know what I mean. They're claiming there's TWO people under the names Grax and Fizloki in beta, yet this website belongs to Grax (aka Greg) and Grax (aka Greg) is telling people to check out his view on the destruction of the true exploration in WoW.

Think I got that right now. :)

Uh, that blog was written in June of 2005, before beta opened, so we got a guy with a definite agenda.

Busted! hahhaha

Anonymous said...

It's late, I wrote that wrong and can't edit it. You know what I mean. They're claiming there's TWO people under the names Grax and Fizloki in beta, yet this website belongs to Grax (aka Greg) and Grax (aka Greg) is telling people to check out his view on the destruction of the true exploration in WoW.

Think I got that right now. :)

Uh, that blog was written in June of 2005, before beta opened, so we got a guy with a definite agenda.

Busted! hahhaha

Anonymous said...

Oh screw this, you totally botched that up! I'll do it myself! :)

There are two people in beta. One person goes by the name of Grax. The other goes by the name of Fizloki.

Grax has a profile with a website. If you go there, you'll notice it's a blog. On the blog, written by Grax is a directive to read his material concerning the destruction of true exploration in WoW. But in parentheses, he directs people to look for this article under his apparent PSEUDO name, Fizloki!

Yes, it did make some of us wonder, in /tells within beta, just what the hell was going on. We figured out that these two testers are one in the same people, since you don't go around directing people to blogs you wrote under the name Fizloki unless you want them to assume you're also, Fizloki.

We did note the date of the blog. We also noted the subject matter. We definitely assume he has an agenda. Just read what he writes. Wouldn't take a genius.

There is also a Hikaru floating around.

It would appear some of these people know each other and have debated these points well before beta opened for Vanguard.

Thank you,
Stacey

Anonymous said...

Oh screw this, you totally botched that up! I'll do it myself! :)

There are two people in beta. One person goes by the name of Grax. The other goes by the name of Fizloki.

Grax has a profile with a website. If you go there, you'll notice it's a blog. On the blog, written by Grax is a directive to read his material concerning the destruction of true exploration in WoW. But in parentheses, he directs people to look for this article under his apparent PSEUDO name, Fizloki!

Yes, it did make some of us wonder, in /tells within beta, just what the hell was going on. We figured out that these two testers are one in the same people, since you don't go around directing people to blogs you wrote under the name Fizloki unless you want them to assume you're also, Fizloki.

We did note the date of the blog. We also noted the subject matter. We definitely assume he has an agenda. Just read what he writes. Wouldn't take a genius.

There is also a Hikaru floating around.

It would appear some of these people know each other and have debated these points well before beta opened for Vanguard.

Thank you,
Stacey

Anonymous said...

Heartless, tell her she doesn't know how to read a blog. I keep telling her that Freedom Greg is the blog! These two people write under it.

They're right to be suspicious that these people knew each other and yes, it was before the date that beta opened. But that's it. That's where the similarities end.

They can very well be two separate people.

She doesn't know how to read a blog, trust me. Neither do her friends. ;)

Mark

Anonymous said...

Heartless, tell her she doesn't know how to read a blog. I keep telling her that Freedom Greg is the blog! These two people write under it.

They're right to be suspicious that these people knew each other and yes, it was before the date that beta opened. But that's it. That's where the similarities end.

They can very well be two separate people.

She doesn't know how to read a blog, trust me. Neither do her friends. ;)

Mark

Anonymous said...

I think you're both confused. lol

-- Vertigo

Point taken on the dates though.

Anonymous said...

I think you're both confused. lol

-- Vertigo

Point taken on the dates though.

Anonymous said...

Does it really matter? Let's not try to build more of a conspiracy theory then there already is.

I'm sure some people in beta had doubts about a lot of things.

At the end of the day, we don't have to be in beta to see enough information that points out something is wrong.

I agree their best course of action would be to start beta over with a clean slate.

Many, many betas do not keep the same group from one phase to the next. This is not uncommon practice.

When the next phase comes up, you simply bring in new ones.

But if Brad wants "vision-defenders", he should specifically ask for that on the next batch. I hardly think it was fair, judging by that FAQ, that he's making blanket invitations to try his game. The ONLY thing he makes specific is that it's for those who want a challenge. It makes no mention whatsoever about timesinks, corpse runs, auction houses, death penalties, ad nauseum.

It was only after these people got in there, they realized what the score was.

I filled out an application myself. I have no recollection of being asked about my gaming style preferences othen then hours per day I could spend and other logistical information.

If I had walked in there and saw what I'm reading, I probably would have been shocked. I don't think it was fair at all.

This was a mistake that should be learned from.

Anonymous said...

Does it really matter? Let's not try to build more of a conspiracy theory then there already is.

I'm sure some people in beta had doubts about a lot of things.

At the end of the day, we don't have to be in beta to see enough information that points out something is wrong.

I agree their best course of action would be to start beta over with a clean slate.

Many, many betas do not keep the same group from one phase to the next. This is not uncommon practice.

When the next phase comes up, you simply bring in new ones.

But if Brad wants "vision-defenders", he should specifically ask for that on the next batch. I hardly think it was fair, judging by that FAQ, that he's making blanket invitations to try his game. The ONLY thing he makes specific is that it's for those who want a challenge. It makes no mention whatsoever about timesinks, corpse runs, auction houses, death penalties, ad nauseum.

It was only after these people got in there, they realized what the score was.

I filled out an application myself. I have no recollection of being asked about my gaming style preferences othen then hours per day I could spend and other logistical information.

If I had walked in there and saw what I'm reading, I probably would have been shocked. I don't think it was fair at all.

This was a mistake that should be learned from.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, you're right. I'm too tired and confused about blogs to understand anymore then I gathered based on the conversations we had in game. We heard things in chat and we became suspicious. Perhaps too suspicious as to the names.

But I'm still standing by the dates because that's all messed up! The dates of those blogs are before beta started so here are some guys with a purpose to change things as he saw fit.

That's all I'm saying.

Heartless, you can delete the rest that's confusing if you would.

Goodnight,
Stacey

Anonymous said...

Yeah, you're right. I'm too tired and confused about blogs to understand anymore then I gathered based on the conversations we had in game. We heard things in chat and we became suspicious. Perhaps too suspicious as to the names.

But I'm still standing by the dates because that's all messed up! The dates of those blogs are before beta started so here are some guys with a purpose to change things as he saw fit.

That's all I'm saying.

Heartless, you can delete the rest that's confusing if you would.

Goodnight,
Stacey

Anonymous said...

Ok, I need to say something here.

Posted on that Grimwell.com site you referenced, Heartless.

At this point, I'm thinking it's too early for me to judge Vanguard one way or the other. The features range from the innovative to the intimidating, but the real question is: how well were they implemented. All beta boards, it seems, are infected with fanboys who can be interpretted as trying to like the game. World of Warcraft was no exception. So, again, it's too early for me to draw many conclusions.

But then, I'm somewhat off of grinds at the moment anywho. Well, that's not true, actually. It's not the grind, it's the lack of encountering new methods of play. Vanguard isn't entirely without potential to captivate me.
_________________
Geldonyetich
Staff: Grimwell.com



Infected with fanbois? Let me tell you something. I was IN World of Warcraft Beta. That game was a blast even in BETA! There was no one there "trying to like the game". Where the hell does this guy come up with this stuff?

It's totally bogus information.

My friends and I have literally hundreds of SS's showing just how much we were "trying" to like it.

WoW beta was a party.
Vanguard beta is a funeral.

Trainwreck

Anonymous said...

Ok, I need to say something here.

Posted on that Grimwell.com site you referenced, Heartless.

At this point, I'm thinking it's too early for me to judge Vanguard one way or the other. The features range from the innovative to the intimidating, but the real question is: how well were they implemented. All beta boards, it seems, are infected with fanboys who can be interpretted as trying to like the game. World of Warcraft was no exception. So, again, it's too early for me to draw many conclusions.

But then, I'm somewhat off of grinds at the moment anywho. Well, that's not true, actually. It's not the grind, it's the lack of encountering new methods of play. Vanguard isn't entirely without potential to captivate me.
_________________
Geldonyetich
Staff: Grimwell.com



Infected with fanbois? Let me tell you something. I was IN World of Warcraft Beta. That game was a blast even in BETA! There was no one there "trying to like the game". Where the hell does this guy come up with this stuff?

It's totally bogus information.

My friends and I have literally hundreds of SS's showing just how much we were "trying" to like it.

WoW beta was a party.
Vanguard beta is a funeral.

Trainwreck

heartlessgamer said...

All you anon posters can click "Other" and enter a name so the conversation can be tracked easier. I usually don't delete comments, but I'm busy IRL and may get around to cleaning that confusion up.

Karmakin said...

I read through that Grax guys blog. And if his attitude is indicitive of the general consensus of the "hard-core" player, then it's pretty clear what he's looking for.

He's looking for a fully stacked pond full of "fresh fish", that he can lord his advanced knowledge over. He wants as much information as can possibly be hidden away from the average player, so that the person who literally lives in the game can go around with a bigger ego knowing that they're "better" than the average Joe.

Things such as automatic mapping, threat level indicators and convienent travel between areas, turn this guy off, because it lowers the amount of power, and thus fame, that a person like himself would have in a MMORPG.

That it increases the amount of fun the average person has, matters naught to him.

This is the type of attitude that any MMORPG beta..natch..any beta period, should run away from, ASAP.

Beetlejuice said...

That pretty much sums up his motive, Karmakin.

When you have a private forum prevalent with this type of mindset, it's only natural to see articles posted in the form of anonymous ventings.

When it's presented to the public in this manner, you have to wonder what recourses with the company were exhausted and left unresolved.

If that's the sequence, then the company brought this upon themselves. They should have seen it coming considering their experience in the field.

This is indicative of a company who was totally unprepared in dealing with opportunists ready to test the levels of tolerance.

Grax-types tasted the chance to influence the design. They saw opportunities to inflate their egos. And maybe, even the chance to get that much of a 1up, that financially exploiting it later wouldn't come as any big surprise.

When the company fails to react, the average player becomes disheartened, the predator (which is what the Grax-types are) become more brazen and chaos results in the end.

That's ultimately why you read articles pointing the blame squarely on the shoulders of the predators who instigated it. The average player perceives his fellow beta invitee as the bully.

But the company should also take some blame here and own up to not reacting appropriately. Instead, what appears to have happened, was an all out war of PvP between player mindsets, on a beta forum.

Sigil needed to act as referee of sorts. Yet presumably neglected to rein in the situation. As a result, you're left with the victims walking away with a very bad impression. That's going to affect them come box-sale time.

The snowball effect has begun. Some cold, hard lessons need to be learned. The article gives Sigil fair warning and ample opportunity to rectify its bloopers.

It's quite possible too, that losing three core designers and one major artist and a host of other problems, left Sigil unprepared to deal with this type of situation.

With SOE now in the picture, the window of opportunity is broadened. Sigil would do best to bring in some fresh air.


(The registration page was down when I wrote this.)

Beetlejuice said...

That pretty much sums up his motive, Karmakin.

When you have a private forum prevalent with this type of mindset, it's only natural to see articles posted in the form of anonymous ventings.

When it's presented to the public in this manner, you have to wonder what recourses with the company were exhausted and left unresolved.

If that's the sequence, then the company brought this upon themselves. They should have seen it coming considering their experience in the field.

This is indicative of a company who was totally unprepared in dealing with opportunists ready to test the levels of tolerance.

Grax-types tasted the chance to influence the design. They saw opportunities to inflate their egos. And maybe, even the chance to get that much of a 1up, that financially exploiting it later wouldn't come as any big surprise.

When the company fails to react, the average player becomes disheartened, the predator (which is what the Grax-types are) become more brazen and chaos results in the end.

That's ultimately why you read articles pointing the blame squarely on the shoulders of the predators who instigated it. The average player perceives his fellow beta invitee as the bully.

But the company should also take some blame here and own up to not reacting appropriately. Instead, what appears to have happened, was an all out war of PvP between player mindsets, on a beta forum.

Sigil needed to act as referee of sorts. Yet presumably neglected to rein in the situation. As a result, you're left with the victims walking away with a very bad impression. That's going to affect them come box-sale time.

The snowball effect has begun. Some cold, hard lessons need to be learned. The article gives Sigil fair warning and ample opportunity to rectify its bloopers.

It's quite possible too, that losing three core designers and one major artist and a host of other problems, left Sigil unprepared to deal with this type of situation.

With SOE now in the picture, the window of opportunity is broadened. Sigil would do best to bring in some fresh air.


(The registration page was down when I wrote this.)

Vertigo said...

Originally Posted by Skars
You clearly want to dumb this game down to WoW levels, please stop. If you knew anything you might realise this game isn't for you!


The response to this was advice along the lines that maybe Skars could "figure a better way of saying it" and add "logic and reason" behind the statement.

/wry grin

Sure, let's solve this by asking posters to now veil their motives better and use logic and reason to justify future, self-important spins.

Now on www.amazon.com: "How to Fuck With Developers of Game Companies and Intimidate Subscribers"

Yup, that'll work.

http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54678&page=8

Vertigo said...

Originally Posted by Skars
You clearly want to dumb this game down to WoW levels, please stop. If you knew anything you might realise this game isn't for you!


The response to this was advice along the lines that maybe Skars could "figure a better way of saying it" and add "logic and reason" behind the statement.

/wry grin

Sure, let's solve this by asking posters to now veil their motives better and use logic and reason to justify future, self-important spins.

Now on www.amazon.com: "How to Fuck With Developers of Game Companies and Intimidate Subscribers"

Yup, that'll work.

http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54678&page=8

Vertigo said...

Another example, same thread:

Originally Posted by Jacquelyn
All I can say after reading the OP is, if true:

THANK GOD FOR THE DEFENDERS OF THE FAITH IN BETA!

If I wanted to play WoW I would be doing so...
If I wanted to zap all over the map I would play Guild Wars...
If I wanted to avoid corpse runs I would play EQ2...

When are these people going to learn!? The original game concept (as advertised by developers) is why we are here.

Fell free to tweak armour appearances, but not core game concepts!

Ask yourself what are the "essential" and "accidental" properties of Vanguard?

A "more challenging game" is, I would argue, essential to what it is we are all waiting patiently for.

The anonymous poster quoted by the OP sounds like a baby to me...


Well of course the OP of the article sounds like a baby to you, Jacquelyn. You put him down as childish only in an effort to raise yourself up to some sort of mature level.

When the truth is, you fear what he says because it exposes your motives and the damage it has added to a developer's reputation.

Get it through your thick head. This is NOT your game. You have no more right to the game you wish to see than anyone else who may disagree with you.

There is NO vision set in stone, especially during the stages of developement. Hell, even after a game has gone to market, changes and entire revamps can and do occur.

There is nothing you can do about it, which is why you spout your elitist drivel. Because you think that by drowning out others and kicking your feet and crying over it, you will somehow get the I WIN button.

Vertigo said...

Another example, same thread:

Originally Posted by Jacquelyn
All I can say after reading the OP is, if true:

THANK GOD FOR THE DEFENDERS OF THE FAITH IN BETA!

If I wanted to play WoW I would be doing so...
If I wanted to zap all over the map I would play Guild Wars...
If I wanted to avoid corpse runs I would play EQ2...

When are these people going to learn!? The original game concept (as advertised by developers) is why we are here.

Fell free to tweak armour appearances, but not core game concepts!

Ask yourself what are the "essential" and "accidental" properties of Vanguard?

A "more challenging game" is, I would argue, essential to what it is we are all waiting patiently for.

The anonymous poster quoted by the OP sounds like a baby to me...


Well of course the OP of the article sounds like a baby to you, Jacquelyn. You put him down as childish only in an effort to raise yourself up to some sort of mature level.

When the truth is, you fear what he says because it exposes your motives and the damage it has added to a developer's reputation.

Get it through your thick head. This is NOT your game. You have no more right to the game you wish to see than anyone else who may disagree with you.

There is NO vision set in stone, especially during the stages of developement. Hell, even after a game has gone to market, changes and entire revamps can and do occur.

There is nothing you can do about it, which is why you spout your elitist drivel. Because you think that by drowning out others and kicking your feet and crying over it, you will somehow get the I WIN button.

Bustamove said...

While this is all good food for thought and somewhat entertaining, I think you all should read this,

WoW has had enormous success with 5 million subs. But that is not the game we are building. Halo2 sold $125m on its first day -- and yet, we are not making that game either.

We are building a game that we want to play. We are building a game that we hope will attract people for a longer term commitment, a home if you will.

If our intent was to build the broadest appeal game we could, we would not be building Vanguard. Our intent is to build the right game for our target audience; and yes, that means pushing the technology envelope.

Will we do our best to ensure that the most people who *want* to play the game actually can? Sure. But I state with some degree of certainty, if you have an older computer that is not at least within a generation or two of moderately current technology (see above), you will not be able to play Vanguard without substantial compromises.
__________________
Zack "Ozuri" Karlsson
Director, Business Development
Sigil Games Online


That was dated back in January of this year.

It more or less takes the high road and says they are making the game THEY want to play. They could care less what YOU want to play.

If you wind up fitting their mold and like it, that's when you'll find yourself to be within their target audience. Otherwise, I see a company that's just fucking around pleasing themselves with technology and money to burn. It sounds like he could care less if you buy it or not.

Just today I was browsing their boards and saw some member going off about how they should all work together to get their ideas out calmly...blah blah blah. It was Ozuri who responded with a "QFT". So that should tell you that he could care less what the "fans" think.

God only knows why Brad hypes this thing when you have directors running around making statements like this.

I don't even see why he needs a forum when the office will do.

They state they could make a game that appeals to the masses. The fact of the matter is, they aren't.

I have my doubts it's even going to take off to the shelf, but I hope they have a good time playing around in there.

I have my games. I'm happy. Their fans are nuts. I would not be happy there.

Bustamove said...

While this is all good food for thought and somewhat entertaining, I think you all should read this,

WoW has had enormous success with 5 million subs. But that is not the game we are building. Halo2 sold $125m on its first day -- and yet, we are not making that game either.

We are building a game that we want to play. We are building a game that we hope will attract people for a longer term commitment, a home if you will.

If our intent was to build the broadest appeal game we could, we would not be building Vanguard. Our intent is to build the right game for our target audience; and yes, that means pushing the technology envelope.

Will we do our best to ensure that the most people who *want* to play the game actually can? Sure. But I state with some degree of certainty, if you have an older computer that is not at least within a generation or two of moderately current technology (see above), you will not be able to play Vanguard without substantial compromises.
__________________
Zack "Ozuri" Karlsson
Director, Business Development
Sigil Games Online


That was dated back in January of this year.

It more or less takes the high road and says they are making the game THEY want to play. They could care less what YOU want to play.

If you wind up fitting their mold and like it, that's when you'll find yourself to be within their target audience. Otherwise, I see a company that's just fucking around pleasing themselves with technology and money to burn. It sounds like he could care less if you buy it or not.

Just today I was browsing their boards and saw some member going off about how they should all work together to get their ideas out calmly...blah blah blah. It was Ozuri who responded with a "QFT". So that should tell you that he could care less what the "fans" think.

God only knows why Brad hypes this thing when you have directors running around making statements like this.

I don't even see why he needs a forum when the office will do.

They state they could make a game that appeals to the masses. The fact of the matter is, they aren't.

I have my doubts it's even going to take off to the shelf, but I hope they have a good time playing around in there.

I have my games. I'm happy. Their fans are nuts. I would not be happy there.

Bustamove said...

There's the post if you want to read it yourselves.

http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=746291#post746291

Bustamove said...

There's the post if you want to read it yourselves.

http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=746291#post746291

Vertigo said...

I think that's a wikki lookup, Bust.

Quoted for truth or, as some WoW'ers use, Quit Fuckin Talkin.

Either way, I get the drift of his post.

He may try to pose as the aloof, I don't give a shit what ya do, seller. But who is he kidding?

They're hyping it to get it sold. What other CEO's do you see out there posting on every internet space imaginable?

It's a nice try at reverse psychology, but I'm betting that QFT was more QUOTED FOR TRUTH, while he may have meant, STFU.

Ah, the world of idioms and double-meanings.

And I don't have time to don my gypsy hat and peer into my crystal ball. Which is about what you'd have to do to find where that bunch stands.

They've already cuts massive amounts of sekret sauce out of that game already according to Sir Bruce.

Vertigo said...

I think that's a wikki lookup, Bust.

Quoted for truth or, as some WoW'ers use, Quit Fuckin Talkin.

Either way, I get the drift of his post.

He may try to pose as the aloof, I don't give a shit what ya do, seller. But who is he kidding?

They're hyping it to get it sold. What other CEO's do you see out there posting on every internet space imaginable?

It's a nice try at reverse psychology, but I'm betting that QFT was more QUOTED FOR TRUTH, while he may have meant, STFU.

Ah, the world of idioms and double-meanings.

And I don't have time to don my gypsy hat and peer into my crystal ball. Which is about what you'd have to do to find where that bunch stands.

They've already cuts massive amounts of sekret sauce out of that game already according to Sir Bruce.

Beetlejuice said...

Gotta wonder why Ozuri is sitting right there allowing that nutty Jacquelyn to keep ranting with zealous laughables.

Boggles my mind.

Ok, back to work with me. Amusing but the money is more important.

Beetlejuice said...

Gotta wonder why Ozuri is sitting right there allowing that nutty Jacquelyn to keep ranting with zealous laughables.

Boggles my mind.

Ok, back to work with me. Amusing but the money is more important.

Chris said...

I see Glip reclaimed his pants, finally.

As the number of edited posts in this thread would imply, there are quite a few people who will not be posting on these forums again for a few weeks.

Disagreeing is fine guys, but it has to be done so civily. Its also worth noting that telling someone to go back to some other game is an attitude that we're not going to support and will in fact do everything in our power to stamp out.

My apologies to everyone in this thread who was able to control themselves and remain civil.

Locking.
__________________
Nick Parkinson
Community Rep
Sigil Games Online
"Where are my pants?"


That deserves an attaboy!

Chris said...

I see Glip reclaimed his pants, finally.

As the number of edited posts in this thread would imply, there are quite a few people who will not be posting on these forums again for a few weeks.

Disagreeing is fine guys, but it has to be done so civily. Its also worth noting that telling someone to go back to some other game is an attitude that we're not going to support and will in fact do everything in our power to stamp out.

My apologies to everyone in this thread who was able to control themselves and remain civil.

Locking.
__________________
Nick Parkinson
Community Rep
Sigil Games Online
"Where are my pants?"


That deserves an attaboy!

Nirvana said...

One observation.

The calmer, more rational members of both FoH and VSoH forums, appear to be original Everquest players.

The crazy ones have a bone to pick with World of Warcraft, or even Sony Online Entertainment. Even that Grax fellow you mentioned, can be traced back to WoW.

Note I did not include those that play/played World of Warcraft but those who played the game and now despise it. Also those that played EQ and hate SOE.

Here's an example.

One particular recent member, goes by the name of Tessera. The link in his signature reveals an interesting story about how he ventured to get a class change in WoW and was basically thrown off the forums. Now he materializes in Vanguard, still seething with anti-WoW bitterness.

That's one champion for Vanguard that Sigil would not need in their defense.

In fact any of the bitter and disgruntled should probably be flagged, especially as they work towards Beta 3.

I think there's still time yet. They may pull out of this with even more respect to gain if those who left in dismay feel they are now vindicated.

Nirvana said...

One observation.

The calmer, more rational members of both FoH and VSoH forums, appear to be original Everquest players.

The crazy ones have a bone to pick with World of Warcraft, or even Sony Online Entertainment. Even that Grax fellow you mentioned, can be traced back to WoW.

Note I did not include those that play/played World of Warcraft but those who played the game and now despise it. Also those that played EQ and hate SOE.

Here's an example.

One particular recent member, goes by the name of Tessera. The link in his signature reveals an interesting story about how he ventured to get a class change in WoW and was basically thrown off the forums. Now he materializes in Vanguard, still seething with anti-WoW bitterness.

That's one champion for Vanguard that Sigil would not need in their defense.

In fact any of the bitter and disgruntled should probably be flagged, especially as they work towards Beta 3.

I think there's still time yet. They may pull out of this with even more respect to gain if those who left in dismay feel they are now vindicated.

Dave said...

Heartless wrote (noticed this added to your front page): UPDATE III: When in doubt start attacking Heartless' credbility. Because we all know I wrote this for self promotion :P

I don't believe this because unless Heartless is in Beta, there's no way he would know about any of those events that were written about. Those events were even confirmed by other Beta people, right in the blog comments here.

Secondly, I've read Heartless write-ups before and the two styles of writing are completely different.

That essay doesn't come across as someone that is used to writing game critiques. It sounds like it's his first attempt, even though it reads competent enough literally. You can understand what he's trying to convey and it's eloquent, but it's hardly someone who has been doing critiques for years.

As for the credibility part, I assume this only has to do with previous doubtful write-ups that Heartless had regarding Vanguard.

I wouldn't put any stock in someone else's baseless accusations, Heartless.

Dave said...

Heartless wrote (noticed this added to your front page): UPDATE III: When in doubt start attacking Heartless' credbility. Because we all know I wrote this for self promotion :P

I don't believe this because unless Heartless is in Beta, there's no way he would know about any of those events that were written about. Those events were even confirmed by other Beta people, right in the blog comments here.

Secondly, I've read Heartless write-ups before and the two styles of writing are completely different.

That essay doesn't come across as someone that is used to writing game critiques. It sounds like it's his first attempt, even though it reads competent enough literally. You can understand what he's trying to convey and it's eloquent, but it's hardly someone who has been doing critiques for years.

As for the credibility part, I assume this only has to do with previous doubtful write-ups that Heartless had regarding Vanguard.

I wouldn't put any stock in someone else's baseless accusations, Heartless.

Bustamove said...

To Vertigo:

QFT, whatever, it did send the message to me that Brad's team thinks as rigidly as Brad does. With the exception of Nino, maybe.

When Brad goes on about targeting the "core" gamer, what the hell is he even saying? He's targeting off the shelf buyers? See the problem with gamer-slang? Everyone has their take on it.

So shit-can all that kool l33t-speak and let's get down to brass tacks.

According to Brad, he's got 60% grouping, 20% solo and 20% raid content. He boasts advanced LFG tools to assist that 60% crowd, but then says you can meet up......by fucking CARAVAN. ???

The combat system is supposedly "action-oriented", whatever the hell that means too. You know why it's so vague? If you read MMORPG.com, it's because Sir Bruce would say it's not even close to being done and hardly demo'd to the public at all. Although to hear Brad tell it, that's untrue. I've yet to see a video of beta-player combat. Until then, Brad's talking nothing but a good line of shit.

The diplomacy "sphere" is supposed to have some type of political connection, which is really just another phraseology for FACTION. You're grinding out faction playing beat-the-clock with a conversation. Whenever it does finally work, if ever, I doubt I'd find it interesting. Maybe a novelty at first but after the first day, I'd be punching the NPC out and having nightmares over the redundant animations and sounds. Think unpolished EQ2 animations with sound overlays.

You've got a beta with less then 100 logging in daily and the testament makes sense. Because if you had more, you invite more opportunity for bad leaks. Best to buy some time, say you have beta in progress and then invite more people when you're sure it may pull you in something more then bad reviews.

Bustamove said...

To Vertigo:

QFT, whatever, it did send the message to me that Brad's team thinks as rigidly as Brad does. With the exception of Nino, maybe.

When Brad goes on about targeting the "core" gamer, what the hell is he even saying? He's targeting off the shelf buyers? See the problem with gamer-slang? Everyone has their take on it.

So shit-can all that kool l33t-speak and let's get down to brass tacks.

According to Brad, he's got 60% grouping, 20% solo and 20% raid content. He boasts advanced LFG tools to assist that 60% crowd, but then says you can meet up......by fucking CARAVAN. ???

The combat system is supposedly "action-oriented", whatever the hell that means too. You know why it's so vague? If you read MMORPG.com, it's because Sir Bruce would say it's not even close to being done and hardly demo'd to the public at all. Although to hear Brad tell it, that's untrue. I've yet to see a video of beta-player combat. Until then, Brad's talking nothing but a good line of shit.

The diplomacy "sphere" is supposed to have some type of political connection, which is really just another phraseology for FACTION. You're grinding out faction playing beat-the-clock with a conversation. Whenever it does finally work, if ever, I doubt I'd find it interesting. Maybe a novelty at first but after the first day, I'd be punching the NPC out and having nightmares over the redundant animations and sounds. Think unpolished EQ2 animations with sound overlays.

You've got a beta with less then 100 logging in daily and the testament makes sense. Because if you had more, you invite more opportunity for bad leaks. Best to buy some time, say you have beta in progress and then invite more people when you're sure it may pull you in something more then bad reviews.

Vertigo said...

QFT! lol - I kid.

Yeah, I'm a port man myself. Not sure that caravan idea is gonna fly. It probably won't for the casual player. They're used to the standard quick gateways. But knowing this game has nothing to do with the casual, bear that in mind. ;0) 20% solo will equal 20% casual oriented, probably less when the subs come in.

Combat, diplomacy, travel. None of this stuff is being shown in-depth or probably even completed in the beta version. I'd be safe in stating that's the truth and if someone disagrees, prove me wrong.

It's a hype. It always was a hype. It's becoming a disillusionment in beta because it's just not even close to done.

No one has seen anything to leak. Better yet, the E3 videos reveal more then what beta probably has to gossip about.

My feeling is, Vanguard is being given far too much attention for something akin to an NPC with a gray ? over its head.

Gotta run, catch ya later, bud.

Vertigo said...

QFT! lol - I kid.

Yeah, I'm a port man myself. Not sure that caravan idea is gonna fly. It probably won't for the casual player. They're used to the standard quick gateways. But knowing this game has nothing to do with the casual, bear that in mind. ;0) 20% solo will equal 20% casual oriented, probably less when the subs come in.

Combat, diplomacy, travel. None of this stuff is being shown in-depth or probably even completed in the beta version. I'd be safe in stating that's the truth and if someone disagrees, prove me wrong.

It's a hype. It always was a hype. It's becoming a disillusionment in beta because it's just not even close to done.

No one has seen anything to leak. Better yet, the E3 videos reveal more then what beta probably has to gossip about.

My feeling is, Vanguard is being given far too much attention for something akin to an NPC with a gray ? over its head.

Gotta run, catch ya later, bud.

Mark said...

Just to clear up the caravan travel puzzlement, here is a quote from McQuaid giving some peek at what to expect. Note that even beta players haven't even seen this feature yet.

It does sound like slow travel at first glance and certainly nothing like an instant port, but yeah, speculation, because no one knows.

"I would simply again point to Vanguard's Caravan system (offline travel) in addition to the easy access to fast travel via vehicles. Like I said, in beta the issue of travel times hasn't been much of an issue at all (outside of the problem where we needed for technical reasons to open up the majority of Thestra while we've only invited a relatively small number of people into beta thus far, creating a situation where the world that is accessible is too large relative to the number of people participating in the beta, causing under-population and lack of critical mass to be an issue). Of course, with beta 3 coming soon, and with one of it's major goals to fill up the gameworld with people, the issue of lack of critical mass will soon go away.

And the Caravan system isn't even turned on in beta yet (it will be there by beta 3, if not before).
"

Signed by Aradune a/k/a Brad McQuaid.

Mark said...

Just to clear up the caravan travel puzzlement, here is a quote from McQuaid giving some peek at what to expect. Note that even beta players haven't even seen this feature yet.

It does sound like slow travel at first glance and certainly nothing like an instant port, but yeah, speculation, because no one knows.

"I would simply again point to Vanguard's Caravan system (offline travel) in addition to the easy access to fast travel via vehicles. Like I said, in beta the issue of travel times hasn't been much of an issue at all (outside of the problem where we needed for technical reasons to open up the majority of Thestra while we've only invited a relatively small number of people into beta thus far, creating a situation where the world that is accessible is too large relative to the number of people participating in the beta, causing under-population and lack of critical mass to be an issue). Of course, with beta 3 coming soon, and with one of it's major goals to fill up the gameworld with people, the issue of lack of critical mass will soon go away.

And the Caravan system isn't even turned on in beta yet (it will be there by beta 3, if not before).
"

Signed by Aradune a/k/a Brad McQuaid.

Mark said...

And just to clear up how this game will stand in terms of timesink:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthMuhh
Grrrr!! I want death penalty tha will make my eyes bleed. I want long travel times. I want corpse retrieval to suck. Gah, please dont water Vanguard down, or hell, have a server with hard core rule sets. Challenge desired, not a cake walk.


McQuaid reassures the poster with,

Don't worry, nobody is watering the game down. What I outlined has been our plan from the start. Remember -- challenge does not have to equal tedium. We can make a challenging and rewarding game (both short and long term) but at the same time remove needless tedium. They don't have to go hand in hand.
__________________
Brad McQuaid
CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Exec. Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.


With that, I've heard exactly what I wanted to know. I will not have TIME for Vanguard's timesinks.

That's not to say someone else may love it. Obviously this DarthMuhh will. I just don't have the time. It looks like this game is going to require tons of it.

My life would suffer if I got into something like this. I've experienced it before in Everquest. I quit that game because it was causing personal conflicts and I had to choose.

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't even tempt myself again.

Mark said...

And just to clear up how this game will stand in terms of timesink:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthMuhh
Grrrr!! I want death penalty tha will make my eyes bleed. I want long travel times. I want corpse retrieval to suck. Gah, please dont water Vanguard down, or hell, have a server with hard core rule sets. Challenge desired, not a cake walk.


McQuaid reassures the poster with,

Don't worry, nobody is watering the game down. What I outlined has been our plan from the start. Remember -- challenge does not have to equal tedium. We can make a challenging and rewarding game (both short and long term) but at the same time remove needless tedium. They don't have to go hand in hand.
__________________
Brad McQuaid
CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Exec. Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.


With that, I've heard exactly what I wanted to know. I will not have TIME for Vanguard's timesinks.

That's not to say someone else may love it. Obviously this DarthMuhh will. I just don't have the time. It looks like this game is going to require tons of it.

My life would suffer if I got into something like this. I've experienced it before in Everquest. I quit that game because it was causing personal conflicts and I had to choose.

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't even tempt myself again.

Anonymous said...

That crowd in there is crazy. They get everything they deserve. I feel bad for the devs but I don't feel sorry for Brad or his entourage of fans. He's never put them in their place and now they're out of control.

They blame WoW, they blame SOE, they blame the OP of this article. They blame EVERYONE but themselves.

These are the absolute worst denizens of the MMORPG world. Be forewarned because it's worse then WoW forums.

Most of those people should be institutionalized. And the ones that are sane, won't be if they stay.

They're nuts, plain and simple.

Anonymous said...

That crowd in there is crazy. They get everything they deserve. I feel bad for the devs but I don't feel sorry for Brad or his entourage of fans. He's never put them in their place and now they're out of control.

They blame WoW, they blame SOE, they blame the OP of this article. They blame EVERYONE but themselves.

These are the absolute worst denizens of the MMORPG world. Be forewarned because it's worse then WoW forums.

Most of those people should be institutionalized. And the ones that are sane, won't be if they stay.

They're nuts, plain and simple.

Anonymous said...

One Glip couldn't clean up that cesspool if wanted to.

Anonymous said...

One Glip couldn't clean up that cesspool if wanted to.

Anonymous said...

This was posted by Progenitor and I thought it was funny how he knew the flames would be incoming even before he hit the send button:

Grats to all the freeloading fanbois. You just lost the internets.

If this place is in the state this guy's forum post depicts, then Brad, Shut down the forums.

Seriously, your health and the health of your team is much more important than the trolls on here. Time would be better spent letting the designer-wannabes write emails, to which you can set an autoreply saying 'thanks' rather than having your own development team savaged on the forums.

I'd clear out all the beta players too and start a fresh line, disallowing the most agressivly vocal players back.

I work as a designer on another rather large mmorpg project and if you read this, do try to take note: We can all see what youre trying to do with the 'open forum' method for the game but really, kids shouldnt have the control of the design of a game as they don't have the maturity to actually create a balanced world.

...and to all the fanbois ready to throw knives at me for scorning you, remember, pretty much every other mmorpg community right now thinks you lot are asshats for what youre pushing the developers to do all out of your own selfishness. Think of that while you furiously reply.


I didn't even read the replies, but then again, I don't have to. You know already they're going to rip him apart. Savages know no better.

Anonymous said...

This was posted by Progenitor and I thought it was funny how he knew the flames would be incoming even before he hit the send button:

Grats to all the freeloading fanbois. You just lost the internets.

If this place is in the state this guy's forum post depicts, then Brad, Shut down the forums.

Seriously, your health and the health of your team is much more important than the trolls on here. Time would be better spent letting the designer-wannabes write emails, to which you can set an autoreply saying 'thanks' rather than having your own development team savaged on the forums.

I'd clear out all the beta players too and start a fresh line, disallowing the most agressivly vocal players back.

I work as a designer on another rather large mmorpg project and if you read this, do try to take note: We can all see what youre trying to do with the 'open forum' method for the game but really, kids shouldnt have the control of the design of a game as they don't have the maturity to actually create a balanced world.

...and to all the fanbois ready to throw knives at me for scorning you, remember, pretty much every other mmorpg community right now thinks you lot are asshats for what youre pushing the developers to do all out of your own selfishness. Think of that while you furiously reply.


I didn't even read the replies, but then again, I don't have to. You know already they're going to rip him apart. Savages know no better.

Jeff Corsine said...

After reading slashdot and a few others, I'm sickened by the judgemental jackasses who claim the OP and other Beta testers who spoke here aren't worthy of their attention.

You know what? It wasn't for YOU asshole! If you weren't so fucking nosey, you wouldn't have read it. But just like every rubber-necking driver that has to slow down at an accident for a glimpse to see some blood, you couldn't contain yourselves, could you? And just like them, you drive away with your pompous opinions after you've taken a good look. You even can't wait to write your own spin on it.

Had that article never been written, no one would probably had the nerve to speak. Vanguard members would have decayed further then what was happening already.

It woke Sigil up. Already they are starting to step up the enforcement of rules. And that will save their game.

Go ahead and deny the thousands of posts written that came out from everywhere to admit some of this was true, if not all.

Then turn around and fault every Beta poster who came forth to agree claiming they broke a NDA.

NDA's don't have anything to do with writing about Beta morale. Even if not in Beta, look at your own forums and see what others see of you. Clean that up first before you wallow in your own stench while pointing fingers at everyone else. Get it straight and get off your high horses.

What drastic decisions did you ever make for the greater good? Probably none.

Here's my name. Look me up and ban me. Ostracize all you want. I could care less.

Jeff Corsine said...

After reading slashdot and a few others, I'm sickened by the judgemental jackasses who claim the OP and other Beta testers who spoke here aren't worthy of their attention.

You know what? It wasn't for YOU asshole! If you weren't so fucking nosey, you wouldn't have read it. But just like every rubber-necking driver that has to slow down at an accident for a glimpse to see some blood, you couldn't contain yourselves, could you? And just like them, you drive away with your pompous opinions after you've taken a good look. You even can't wait to write your own spin on it.

Had that article never been written, no one would probably had the nerve to speak. Vanguard members would have decayed further then what was happening already.

It woke Sigil up. Already they are starting to step up the enforcement of rules. And that will save their game.

Go ahead and deny the thousands of posts written that came out from everywhere to admit some of this was true, if not all.

Then turn around and fault every Beta poster who came forth to agree claiming they broke a NDA.

NDA's don't have anything to do with writing about Beta morale. Even if not in Beta, look at your own forums and see what others see of you. Clean that up first before you wallow in your own stench while pointing fingers at everyone else. Get it straight and get off your high horses.

What drastic decisions did you ever make for the greater good? Probably none.

Here's my name. Look me up and ban me. Ostracize all you want. I could care less.

Anonymous said...

Things have really gotten out of hand. I wish I could contradict all the comments here but I can't. I want Vanguard to succeed so much, I want another game that I can fall in love with, but at this rate, it's never going to happen.

It seems the developers have defined the position of beta tester as uncredited associate game designer. They constantly and repeatedly post on the forums that they "ignore bad feedback". Saying that a specific mechanic "isn't fun and needs to be looked at" isn't good enough. They want a 10 page essay on what you would do to make it better, complete with citations and full documentation. No beta test I've been in thus far has asked this much from testers. It's ridiculous.

So you do what you're told and write excellent feedback detailing what's not working for you, what doesn't feel right, and how you would change it. You get blasted on sight for having an opinion that differs with the vanbois. It's pathetic, and worse, the dev team tolerates it. The beta forums aren't moderated. At all. Ever.

And at the core of all of this, is those deemed worthy enough to become affiliate sites. These people encompass the most kiss-ass of the sycophants. They act like the cock of the walk on the beta forums because Sigil goes out of their way to kiss their ass. They get trips to San Diego, personal meetings with Brad and crew. They all seem to have each others heads up their asses. If I had to put my finger on the single biggest flaw of the dev crew so far, it was the affiliate program. More often than not it's these asses that are berating people and getting away with it, and if it's not them, it's one of their associated cronies from their forums.

So, to summarize this rambling and to firmly point the finger at whose to blame, look no farther that Sigil itself. It's easy to say that the fanboy testers are ruining the game, but the fact that they allow this behaviour by looking the other way when they run the forums, places blame solely in their own laps.

FOR THOSE WHO CAN'T READ THROUGH ALL MY RAMBLING...

SUMMARY: Sigil is to blame for Vanguard's slow death, they don't moderate their own beta board.

Anonymous said...

Things have really gotten out of hand. I wish I could contradict all the comments here but I can't. I want Vanguard to succeed so much, I want another game that I can fall in love with, but at this rate, it's never going to happen.

It seems the developers have defined the position of beta tester as uncredited associate game designer. They constantly and repeatedly post on the forums that they "ignore bad feedback". Saying that a specific mechanic "isn't fun and needs to be looked at" isn't good enough. They want a 10 page essay on what you would do to make it better, complete with citations and full documentation. No beta test I've been in thus far has asked this much from testers. It's ridiculous.

So you do what you're told and write excellent feedback detailing what's not working for you, what doesn't feel right, and how you would change it. You get blasted on sight for having an opinion that differs with the vanbois. It's pathetic, and worse, the dev team tolerates it. The beta forums aren't moderated. At all. Ever.

And at the core of all of this, is those deemed worthy enough to become affiliate sites. These people encompass the most kiss-ass of the sycophants. They act like the cock of the walk on the beta forums because Sigil goes out of their way to kiss their ass. They get trips to San Diego, personal meetings with Brad and crew. They all seem to have each others heads up their asses. If I had to put my finger on the single biggest flaw of the dev crew so far, it was the affiliate program. More often than not it's these asses that are berating people and getting away with it, and if it's not them, it's one of their associated cronies from their forums.

So, to summarize this rambling and to firmly point the finger at whose to blame, look no farther that Sigil itself. It's easy to say that the fanboy testers are ruining the game, but the fact that they allow this behaviour by looking the other way when they run the forums, places blame solely in their own laps.

FOR THOSE WHO CAN'T READ THROUGH ALL MY RAMBLING...

SUMMARY: Sigil is to blame for Vanguard's slow death, they don't moderate their own beta board.

Renee said...

This is not the first time I've read complaints concerning the impact of fansites becoming an overbearing presence on the normal player-base.

In this case, it's a phenomenon because there is no game in existence yet with Vanguard.

DAOC, AC1, EQ2, to name a few, all had problems with fans perceiving that special treatment was being given to affiliate site individuals posting on the main company's boards.

The discourse usually enters when the individual is given a status perk from the game company and then abuses it by looking down their noses at the average player; or putting themselves on a par with the best players.

Gamers, by nature, are a competitive sort, and thereby don't appreciate anything not earned.

In EQ2, it was particularly noticeable when one of their fan-writers associated himself with an affiliate site. It's interesting that after a time, even the mere mention of this person's name, infused mass hate comments on an Aggro Me blog. The entire blog was completely derailed of its subject matter in favor of tearing down the 'elevated plateau' they perceived this person to be standing on. The comments painted him as an inexperienced blowhorn with an unearned, modded forum title. Once he was mentioned, there was no end to the scorn.

In the end, the status symbols being handed out are either merited or they're not. The above example is indicative of that. Gamers are ruthless against petty, undeserving egos in their game.

If there's one thing I've learned watching subscribers in various MMOG's over the years, it's that a company stands more to lose in the way of faction with their customers, if the site endorsing their product becomes arrogant with their customers.

The company governing the product, would do well to hold their affiliates to a higher standard and address any subscriber complaints.

In Sigi's defense, it would appear they have begun addressing issues concerning various trouble spots. I applaud them for that effort. Perhaps you will see some improvements in this area as well.

I would say give them a little more time if the game still interests you.

Your point is duly noted however, and hopefully they will take a look at this issue, too. But know that affiliate site problems affects all gaming companies at some level.

Renee said...

This is not the first time I've read complaints concerning the impact of fansites becoming an overbearing presence on the normal player-base.

In this case, it's a phenomenon because there is no game in existence yet with Vanguard.

DAOC, AC1, EQ2, to name a few, all had problems with fans perceiving that special treatment was being given to affiliate site individuals posting on the main company's boards.

The discourse usually enters when the individual is given a status perk from the game company and then abuses it by looking down their noses at the average player; or putting themselves on a par with the best players.

Gamers, by nature, are a competitive sort, and thereby don't appreciate anything not earned.

In EQ2, it was particularly noticeable when one of their fan-writers associated himself with an affiliate site. It's interesting that after a time, even the mere mention of this person's name, infused mass hate comments on an Aggro Me blog. The entire blog was completely derailed of its subject matter in favor of tearing down the 'elevated plateau' they perceived this person to be standing on. The comments painted him as an inexperienced blowhorn with an unearned, modded forum title. Once he was mentioned, there was no end to the scorn.

In the end, the status symbols being handed out are either merited or they're not. The above example is indicative of that. Gamers are ruthless against petty, undeserving egos in their game.

If there's one thing I've learned watching subscribers in various MMOG's over the years, it's that a company stands more to lose in the way of faction with their customers, if the site endorsing their product becomes arrogant with their customers.

The company governing the product, would do well to hold their affiliates to a higher standard and address any subscriber complaints.

In Sigi's defense, it would appear they have begun addressing issues concerning various trouble spots. I applaud them for that effort. Perhaps you will see some improvements in this area as well.

I would say give them a little more time if the game still interests you.

Your point is duly noted however, and hopefully they will take a look at this issue, too. But know that affiliate site problems affects all gaming companies at some level.

Anonymous said...

Regarding those lousy NDA-breakers who everyone should discredit........

I think people should take notice that it was Anyen who first called this OP of the article a liar. It was only after this event, that other shocked beta players felt the need to tell the real truth.

It should also be noted that Anyen is in V:SoH beta and has spouted off enough about the game. But since it's all good feedback he's giving and it's being conducted on the FoH boards, there's no penalty of getting thrown out of beta, because Aradune Mithara enjoys using that board to advertise his game.

Nice double-standard that people set.

You all suck!

Anonymous said...

Regarding those lousy NDA-breakers who everyone should discredit........

I think people should take notice that it was Anyen who first called this OP of the article a liar. It was only after this event, that other shocked beta players felt the need to tell the real truth.

It should also be noted that Anyen is in V:SoH beta and has spouted off enough about the game. But since it's all good feedback he's giving and it's being conducted on the FoH boards, there's no penalty of getting thrown out of beta, because Aradune Mithara enjoys using that board to advertise his game.

Nice double-standard that people set.

You all suck!

Undead Macabre said...

"Things have really gotten out of hand. I wish I could contradict all the comments here but I can't. I want Vanguard to succeed so much, I want another game that I can fall in love with, but at this rate, it's never going to happen."

You're right. The stuff about them cleaning up the place sounds good but I reported posts too that shotdown people and they didn't do shit about it. They're only cleaning up the crap that really stands out.

People are reporting it. I tried. They do nothing in most cases. Then you feel ignored and handle it yourself. Only that's when you get glipped. Dammit Glip, if you did it when I asked ya, you wouldn't be reading this complaint and I might still be there.

He doesn't care because it's not him they're attacking. And I mean they'll attack you over the STUPIDEST stuff!

At least on WoW I can report it and contest it if they do nothing. They always wind up getting rid of it, even if it takes a couple times in some cases.

My WoW signature now reads.

"I said HI on the Vanguard forums and it was a 50 DKP minus flamefest of moredots!"

Undead Macabre said...

"Things have really gotten out of hand. I wish I could contradict all the comments here but I can't. I want Vanguard to succeed so much, I want another game that I can fall in love with, but at this rate, it's never going to happen."

You're right. The stuff about them cleaning up the place sounds good but I reported posts too that shotdown people and they didn't do shit about it. They're only cleaning up the crap that really stands out.

People are reporting it. I tried. They do nothing in most cases. Then you feel ignored and handle it yourself. Only that's when you get glipped. Dammit Glip, if you did it when I asked ya, you wouldn't be reading this complaint and I might still be there.

He doesn't care because it's not him they're attacking. And I mean they'll attack you over the STUPIDEST stuff!

At least on WoW I can report it and contest it if they do nothing. They always wind up getting rid of it, even if it takes a couple times in some cases.

My WoW signature now reads.

"I said HI on the Vanguard forums and it was a 50 DKP minus flamefest of moredots!"

Anonymous said...

Warhammer looks like it will be a lot better then this game.

Anonymous said...

Warhammer looks like it will be a lot better then this game.

Anonymous said...

Heres some more NDA breakage to sink your teeth into

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/507180-post542.html

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/507194-post547.html

Mass ganked by mobs at level 7, and a full bar of xp debt to work off to show for it? hahaha thats not hardcore, its blatant stupidity!

Anonymous said...

Heres some more NDA breakage to sink your teeth into

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/507180-post542.html

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/507194-post547.html

Mass ganked by mobs at level 7, and a full bar of xp debt to work off to show for it? hahaha thats not hardcore, its blatant stupidity!

Raven said...

It cracks me up how forums like Fires of Heaven and Silky Venom talk all day about NDA breakers and how you can't believe anything they say, but they were the first to repost that article, on THEIR boards!

Silky Venom is one of their affiliate sites, too.

It's just too hypocritical! If they didn't want to make an issue of it, why repost it? Don't tell me they didn't want a piece of the action because I don't believe it. If they hadn't done that it wouldn't have received half of the attention, I'm sure. If they're going to complain about NDA breakers, Silky Venom is just as bad as they are.

That article has to be the least of Sigil's problem anyway. It cries about leaving a beta because the people there sucked? What a joke! There's no game info in that article. Wow, we know they talked about maps and corpse runs. DUHHH! Every game does. What do we know they decided about it? Zippo.

But, FoH has been posting screenshots and letting their posters leak info for months. None of it, good. And Sigil staff still posts there. Yet no one takes notice of that hypocrisy, much less any of the other hypocrites I mentioned and more.

Raven said...

It cracks me up how forums like Fires of Heaven and Silky Venom talk all day about NDA breakers and how you can't believe anything they say, but they were the first to repost that article, on THEIR boards!

Silky Venom is one of their affiliate sites, too.

It's just too hypocritical! If they didn't want to make an issue of it, why repost it? Don't tell me they didn't want a piece of the action because I don't believe it. If they hadn't done that it wouldn't have received half of the attention, I'm sure. If they're going to complain about NDA breakers, Silky Venom is just as bad as they are.

That article has to be the least of Sigil's problem anyway. It cries about leaving a beta because the people there sucked? What a joke! There's no game info in that article. Wow, we know they talked about maps and corpse runs. DUHHH! Every game does. What do we know they decided about it? Zippo.

But, FoH has been posting screenshots and letting their posters leak info for months. None of it, good. And Sigil staff still posts there. Yet no one takes notice of that hypocrisy, much less any of the other hypocrites I mentioned and more.

Raven said...

LOL, I just read those links. Can you say enforcing group enforcement at level 7? I can. :)

They can think what they want. It's their game, but I know those days are over. I've played too many. WoW is a precedent because now that people know they don't HAVE to live for a game, they're not going to.

Oh, thought I would also mention. I read somewhere else, not sure where, that Brad hasn't even played WoW. So those links don't surprise me.

Raven said...

LOL, I just read those links. Can you say enforcing group enforcement at level 7? I can. :)

They can think what they want. It's their game, but I know those days are over. I've played too many. WoW is a precedent because now that people know they don't HAVE to live for a game, they're not going to.

Oh, thought I would also mention. I read somewhere else, not sure where, that Brad hasn't even played WoW. So those links don't surprise me.

Raven said...

Here it is, Dillgaar, a Silky Venom staff person writes:

What do you guys think about a beta tester (seemingly) posting about the current beta community and how they see things progressing/digressing?

I don't think anything of it except that it's unfortunate that Sigil let it get to that point. Do you have any proof this OP didn't try to tell them before it got to this point? Posters here say they tried and were ignored. What about that?

We didn't even get that much from the OP. He just mentioned there was a lack of moderation, which your posters and everyone else seems to have agreed on! So are they NDA breakers too? They agree VG forums are a mess. Did they break an NDA? Other than that I don't see where your posters are calling foul. They're JUST AS BAD!

Your posters seem to take the attitude that this article reflects an ungrateful snob who should be sued, shunned by your "community" and hung out to dry.

Then what about you for reposting it? What about them for continuing to harp on it, interjecting their conclusions of it all? Wasn't that adding fuel to the fire? Do you realize how many people don't even bother with blogs but prefer forums?

Blogs are just someone's thoughts, nothing else. This was someone's thoughts added to Heartless's thoughts. YOU guys are the ones who presented it to VG's fans. I seriously doubt it would have gotten any attention if you, FoH and others didn't go out of your way to help spread it around.

This may seem harsh, but you guys post things for attention sake, then you get the attention you sought, then you encourage your members to talk about how they feel against or for the OP of the article.

When you get down from your high perch, let us know, we'll discuss it. Because you're not helping Sigil with this ongoing nonsense.

Wrong or right, I don't read the original article as having bashed Sigil. It was your members who did that. Rayne did a pretty good job of bashing them. I don't see where the OP here did that.

If you need a refresher, here ya go, http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3907&page=2

Raven said...

Here it is, Dillgaar, a Silky Venom staff person writes:

What do you guys think about a beta tester (seemingly) posting about the current beta community and how they see things progressing/digressing?

I don't think anything of it except that it's unfortunate that Sigil let it get to that point. Do you have any proof this OP didn't try to tell them before it got to this point? Posters here say they tried and were ignored. What about that?

We didn't even get that much from the OP. He just mentioned there was a lack of moderation, which your posters and everyone else seems to have agreed on! So are they NDA breakers too? They agree VG forums are a mess. Did they break an NDA? Other than that I don't see where your posters are calling foul. They're JUST AS BAD!

Your posters seem to take the attitude that this article reflects an ungrateful snob who should be sued, shunned by your "community" and hung out to dry.

Then what about you for reposting it? What about them for continuing to harp on it, interjecting their conclusions of it all? Wasn't that adding fuel to the fire? Do you realize how many people don't even bother with blogs but prefer forums?

Blogs are just someone's thoughts, nothing else. This was someone's thoughts added to Heartless's thoughts. YOU guys are the ones who presented it to VG's fans. I seriously doubt it would have gotten any attention if you, FoH and others didn't go out of your way to help spread it around.

This may seem harsh, but you guys post things for attention sake, then you get the attention you sought, then you encourage your members to talk about how they feel against or for the OP of the article.

When you get down from your high perch, let us know, we'll discuss it. Because you're not helping Sigil with this ongoing nonsense.

Wrong or right, I don't read the original article as having bashed Sigil. It was your members who did that. Rayne did a pretty good job of bashing them. I don't see where the OP here did that.

If you need a refresher, here ya go, http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3907&page=2

TED said...

Valid point, Raven. I'd be surprised if the OP was even in beta any longer. One doesn't suggest to throw everyone out of beta if he or she was wanting to stick around. He's apparently long gone. He hasn't resurfaced since.

I skimmed through those posts and what I walk away with are people trying to use the article as a means to let them in beta instead. Funny stuff but so transparent.

They don't seem to address the problem. They seem to enjoy placing blame. Exactly what the article talks about which is blatant, bad attitudes that no one got a grip over.

Everyone knows this type of problem happens in all betas, but it's probably one of the first times someone had the nerve to bring it up, in article format. I think it was a good thing. Any gaming company would benefit to address these signs in the future. Like the other poster said, "Who woulda thunk it?"

Most intelligent people understand that it's not Sigil that it only happens to. Neither would they blame Sigil for having it happen to them. I feel a bit of pity for them myself, as I would any company that had to put up with this type of immaturity. And that's what it is - total immaturity!

TED said...

Valid point, Raven. I'd be surprised if the OP was even in beta any longer. One doesn't suggest to throw everyone out of beta if he or she was wanting to stick around. He's apparently long gone. He hasn't resurfaced since.

I skimmed through those posts and what I walk away with are people trying to use the article as a means to let them in beta instead. Funny stuff but so transparent.

They don't seem to address the problem. They seem to enjoy placing blame. Exactly what the article talks about which is blatant, bad attitudes that no one got a grip over.

Everyone knows this type of problem happens in all betas, but it's probably one of the first times someone had the nerve to bring it up, in article format. I think it was a good thing. Any gaming company would benefit to address these signs in the future. Like the other poster said, "Who woulda thunk it?"

Most intelligent people understand that it's not Sigil that it only happens to. Neither would they blame Sigil for having it happen to them. I feel a bit of pity for them myself, as I would any company that had to put up with this type of immaturity. And that's what it is - total immaturity!

Observer said...

Speaking of NDA-breakers, there's a post put up on the official VG boards encouraging those in beta to talk about how they test. http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55068

The OP confirms that when he says "I posed a question to those that are currently participating, or are wanting to beta test."

LOL! Then they start answering with stuff like "I'm in beta and.."

Breaking the NDA, one day at a time. ahahhahaha!

Observer said...

Speaking of NDA-breakers, there's a post put up on the official VG boards encouraging those in beta to talk about how they test. http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55068

The OP confirms that when he says "I posed a question to those that are currently participating, or are wanting to beta test."

LOL! Then they start answering with stuff like "I'm in beta and.."

Breaking the NDA, one day at a time. ahahhahaha!

Mortiman said...

That was yesterday's news where they hated the NDA-breakers. Today, the new breed of NDA-breakers, are posting screenshots for all (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/retard-rickshaw/22693-vanguard-ss.html) and being slapped on the back for it in congratulations by posters on the official Vanguard forums! (http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55082)

Newsflash: A person in Vanguard's beta, who goes by the name of "Slide", posted various pictures of V:SOH gameplay to, allegedly, thwart the negativity and rumors surrounding the game.

After posting numerous pictures on the FoH forum boards, he turned himself into a GM (Game Master) at Sigil.

Afterward, they celebrated on the official Vanguard boards, where Slide was acknowledged for his good deeds by fellow VG enthusiasts.

Slide continues to follow his story of "betrayal" at the above sites, including Silky Venom, a Vanguard Affiliate (although that thread has been recently removed).

Since he continues to post upon the official site's boards, it's obvious his account has not been suspended, although he was admittedly, removed from beta.

Such a valiant act to some, such a disappointment for others.

Disappointment being, because this looks like a bad attempt at Everquest 2 and Poser-like character modelling.

Slide, thank you for saving us the expense in purchasing this game! We owe you! Enjoy your time in the sun! :)

Mortiman said...

That was yesterday's news where they hated the NDA-breakers. Today, the new breed of NDA-breakers, are posting screenshots for all (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/retard-rickshaw/22693-vanguard-ss.html) and being slapped on the back for it in congratulations by posters on the official Vanguard forums! (http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55082)

Newsflash: A person in Vanguard's beta, who goes by the name of "Slide", posted various pictures of V:SOH gameplay to, allegedly, thwart the negativity and rumors surrounding the game.

After posting numerous pictures on the FoH forum boards, he turned himself into a GM (Game Master) at Sigil.

Afterward, they celebrated on the official Vanguard boards, where Slide was acknowledged for his good deeds by fellow VG enthusiasts.

Slide continues to follow his story of "betrayal" at the above sites, including Silky Venom, a Vanguard Affiliate (although that thread has been recently removed).

Since he continues to post upon the official site's boards, it's obvious his account has not been suspended, although he was admittedly, removed from beta.

Such a valiant act to some, such a disappointment for others.

Disappointment being, because this looks like a bad attempt at Everquest 2 and Poser-like character modelling.

Slide, thank you for saving us the expense in purchasing this game! We owe you! Enjoy your time in the sun! :)

Sharktooth said...

ewwwwww....that looks like crap! I know it's beta but, what's up with that Rastafarian hair on that chick?

He needs a textures expert in my opinion.

So those are medium quality settings far as I read? I guess it's not too bad, but it's not as good as EQ 2 or even GW. I guess I expected this new technology or something. I guess that's weather?

On one of the pics was an interface shot. Some blank boxes to the right suggest an EQ 2 reaction-type thing going on. Playing the interface, again. Where's the something different?

Something different sounds like weather, travel and placement of housing. In addition to some good 'ol EQ 1 punishments for not knowing what the hell you were doing.

I hope this is going to include a good book...errr...manual. lol

I think those pics are the most damaging leaks yet. He didn't do them any favors. It was too early to release that.

I felt sorry for them with this article here because of asshats but I didn't doubt their competence. Now I think I'll be looking elsewhere.

I think it was stupid of this Slide person to leak something so vital.

Sharktooth said...

ewwwwww....that looks like crap! I know it's beta but, what's up with that Rastafarian hair on that chick?

He needs a textures expert in my opinion.

So those are medium quality settings far as I read? I guess it's not too bad, but it's not as good as EQ 2 or even GW. I guess I expected this new technology or something. I guess that's weather?

On one of the pics was an interface shot. Some blank boxes to the right suggest an EQ 2 reaction-type thing going on. Playing the interface, again. Where's the something different?

Something different sounds like weather, travel and placement of housing. In addition to some good 'ol EQ 1 punishments for not knowing what the hell you were doing.

I hope this is going to include a good book...errr...manual. lol

I think those pics are the most damaging leaks yet. He didn't do them any favors. It was too early to release that.

I felt sorry for them with this article here because of asshats but I didn't doubt their competence. Now I think I'll be looking elsewhere.

I think it was stupid of this Slide person to leak something so vital.

mystified said...

So much attention over a game with so little going for it!

mystified said...

So much attention over a game with so little going for it!

mystified said...

Y'all knew this was going to be Everquest Revisted, why are you so much in shock? I'm not.

mystified said...

Y'all knew this was going to be Everquest Revisted, why are you so much in shock? I'm not.

Rayne said...

Hey raven, why don't you pull your head outta Brad's ass and catch a breath. And maybe a clue while you're at it? I "bashed" Sigil? The hell I did, and you know it. And no, i'm not fishing for a "beta slot". I'd rather play the finished game when it releases.

How was my bitching about Nick suspending me for no good god damned reason bashing Sigil btw?

Perhaps you should try reading between the OP's lines. His "direct point" wasn't that the game is a mess. But his message was pretty clear. The games a mess according to a rather fair portion of the tester base, and anyone trying to tell devs that, is being squashed into silence by a few masochistic morons for saying so.

Take off those rose colored glasses. You might just be able to see what the rest of the genre is looking at.

Rayne said...

Hey raven, why don't you pull your head outta Brad's ass and catch a breath. And maybe a clue while you're at it? I "bashed" Sigil? The hell I did, and you know it. And no, i'm not fishing for a "beta slot". I'd rather play the finished game when it releases.

How was my bitching about Nick suspending me for no good god damned reason bashing Sigil btw?

Perhaps you should try reading between the OP's lines. His "direct point" wasn't that the game is a mess. But his message was pretty clear. The games a mess according to a rather fair portion of the tester base, and anyone trying to tell devs that, is being squashed into silence by a few masochistic morons for saying so.

Take off those rose colored glasses. You might just be able to see what the rest of the genre is looking at.

Raven said...

Thank you for confirming the intention in my post, Rayne.

First you went on eluding to a conspiracy theory that the OP's article came at a time when SOE/Sigil merged and "someone" was pushing it too hard for it to be coincidence. I believe I paraphrased that correctly. Feel free to deny though.

Then, after being so critical of the OP of the article here, you fail to see any fault with those reposting it where it gained the most notoriety. (which is the point of my article in case you didn't gather)

Finally, after your ban off the OVF (as you call them), you put Sigil directly in your crosshairs and make this remark:

"To which I never did get a response. The fact that they can't keep thier internal communications together, is in no way my fault. On one hand, a Sigil rep "commending" me for "keeping it real"? On the other, another Sigil rep hastily waving his "suspension rod", using 2 week to 8 month old posts as justification? You might want to consider that the team you admire so much, really doesn't have thier crap together, and thier beta isn't the only department its broken in. Because when every department starts pushing some these veterans the wrong way, its going to alienate the wrong people from thier camp."

Commentary:
===========

In essence, do you realize you've just agreed with the OP of the article? Yet you're finding some type of underlying reason why he may have written it. Are we seeing the point now?

In a way I feel sorry for you because you, among probably hundreds of fans, cling to what a game designer has been posting about, all over the .net, for years. So who is up whose ass here (as you put it)? Yes, I mean to be blunt because you're not being rational in that analyses.

To the general public it DOES seem like Silky Venom, Fires of Heaven and the official Vanguard forums, et al., reposted an article when they could have just ignored it, giving it NO credence or importance. They chose to repost it but no one sees any connection between doing that and harming Sigil's reputation, the same reputation that some fault the OP of this article for having done.

(My personal opinion is that the repost is indicative of their own DOUBTS, so they thought they'd share them with YOU.)

In your own words, you're not exactly happy about the treatment you received, yet you think this article is some sort of conspiracy because someone else is irritated besides you. Does this honestly make any sense to you?

I have my rose-colored glasses off. I see things objectively because I'm not close to your situation. Yet you feel compelled to say that fault lies with me when the evidence says otherwise. Which is just another excuse to keep the flames of this sordid affair alive and well.

I feel sorry for you because no one should be writing you notes keeping you sucked in this way. It's manipulation at it's finest. In this manner, you can speak "the vision" and he doesn't have to put himself out there. What for? You're the willing patsy.

In addition, they have the freedom to change it in the future because in the end, it's not about loyalty, it's about sales.

You can hate me for what I wrote, and that choice is certainly yours, or you can read it for impartial content and see what others see who aren't roasting in the flames.

Raven said...

Thank you for confirming the intention in my post, Rayne.

First you went on eluding to a conspiracy theory that the OP's article came at a time when SOE/Sigil merged and "someone" was pushing it too hard for it to be coincidence. I believe I paraphrased that correctly. Feel free to deny though.

Then, after being so critical of the OP of the article here, you fail to see any fault with those reposting it where it gained the most notoriety. (which is the point of my article in case you didn't gather)

Finally, after your ban off the OVF (as you call them), you put Sigil directly in your crosshairs and make this remark:

"To which I never did get a response. The fact that they can't keep thier internal communications together, is in no way my fault. On one hand, a Sigil rep "commending" me for "keeping it real"? On the other, another Sigil rep hastily waving his "suspension rod", using 2 week to 8 month old posts as justification? You might want to consider that the team you admire so much, really doesn't have thier crap together, and thier beta isn't the only department its broken in. Because when every department starts pushing some these veterans the wrong way, its going to alienate the wrong people from thier camp."

Commentary:
===========

In essence, do you realize you've just agreed with the OP of the article? Yet you're finding some type of underlying reason why he may have written it. Are we seeing the point now?

In a way I feel sorry for you because you, among probably hundreds of fans, cling to what a game designer has been posting about, all over the .net, for years. So who is up whose ass here (as you put it)? Yes, I mean to be blunt because you're not being rational in that analyses.

To the general public it DOES seem like Silky Venom, Fires of Heaven and the official Vanguard forums, et al., reposted an article when they could have just ignored it, giving it NO credence or importance. They chose to repost it but no one sees any connection between doing that and harming Sigil's reputation, the same reputation that some fault the OP of this article for having done.

(My personal opinion is that the repost is indicative of their own DOUBTS, so they thought they'd share them with YOU.)

In your own words, you're not exactly happy about the treatment you received, yet you think this article is some sort of conspiracy because someone else is irritated besides you. Does this honestly make any sense to you?

I have my rose-colored glasses off. I see things objectively because I'm not close to your situation. Yet you feel compelled to say that fault lies with me when the evidence says otherwise. Which is just another excuse to keep the flames of this sordid affair alive and well.

I feel sorry for you because no one should be writing you notes keeping you sucked in this way. It's manipulation at it's finest. In this manner, you can speak "the vision" and he doesn't have to put himself out there. What for? You're the willing patsy.

In addition, they have the freedom to change it in the future because in the end, it's not about loyalty, it's about sales.

You can hate me for what I wrote, and that choice is certainly yours, or you can read it for impartial content and see what others see who aren't roasting in the flames.

TED said...

Because when every department starts pushing some these veterans the wrong way, its going to alienate the wrong people from thier camp. - Rayne

So you're saying that if they ALL start pushing you (the veteran of Everquest) the wrong way, Sigil is going to fall apart?

Do you really believe they place that much importance on you?

TED said...

Because when every department starts pushing some these veterans the wrong way, its going to alienate the wrong people from thier camp. - Rayne

So you're saying that if they ALL start pushing you (the veteran of Everquest) the wrong way, Sigil is going to fall apart?

Do you really believe they place that much importance on you?

TED said...

Raven, I'd point out that the OP of the article and this Rayne only have one thing in common: A fault with the management and current tone of the fans.

The OP finds fault with no moderation while Rayne finds fault with the moderation.

The OP finds fault with a crowd that has no tolerance for diverse gaming backgrounds.

Rayne feels something owed to him/her for being the "veteran" and is now feeling betrayed.

As for the banning, it's a matter of not what you say, but how you say it. Even I can see that his tone is pretty hot-headed.

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