April 17, 2008

Ganking, Deal WIth It

Blizzard has a solution for ganking: deal with it. In Blizzard's eye, players have a choice of where to play. Even if someone started on a PvP server, they are only a server transfer away from PvE friendliness.

I guess that little PvP indicator on the Server Select screen needs to be changed then and be replaced with a "You will be ganked." sign. I've played on a PvP server since launch and since about my third month I can't remember finding PvP anywhere on the server. Yes, battlegrounds and arenas are there, but those are within my battlegroup, not server.

Let me cut to the chase. I don't disagree with Blizzards point. If someone doesn't like getting ganked, don't play on a PvP server. If that isn't an option, then get some people and fight back. If that fails, just stay home and come out only when the area is clear two miles in each direction.

Sadly, none of these cover my situation, the "I'm playing on a PvP server, looking for PvP, but all I keep finding is ganking." None of Blizzard's little quips exactly helps. I reckon I am not the only one that rolled on a PvP server four years ago expecting to get a few years worth of PvP out of it.

Unfortunately, a "PvP server" tag is not indicative that PvP will take place on that server. Breaking it down, Battlegrounds and Arenas exist on all server types. PvP combat can take place in all zones on any server.

The only distinction for a PvP server is that PvP doesn't have to be switched on, its always on, and can not be switched off. That isn't even all that hardcore. Players know its coming and expect it to happen. They simply stop, die, and run back to their grave. Click "Accept" and its back to business as normal.

Hardcore would be a player playing on a PvE server with their PvP flag toggled on at all times. This ensures no moment of safety, as the player is truly vulnerable anywhere in the world. Plus the only way this type of player gets to jump someone is when they have set themselves for PvP as well, meaning they are fully willing and able to fight.

This type of player only gets to fight when someone else deems them worthy to fight. No easy kills for this type of player and my guess is they would just get mind-numbingly ganked by players that flag and unflag themselves, until they swapped over to a "true" PvP server. I personally gave this method a go for 47 levels on a Mage and it actually lead to a few well balanced fights, but mostly it was dirt nap city to gankers. PvP flag enabled on a PvE realm is asking to get ganked, because there is no repercussion.

So, wouldn't that make PvP servers better? The option for revenge is there, open for the taking. Well thats if the player that was ganked also happened to have their epic flying mount, Season 3 gear, and a ganker dumb enough to stick around. But the kind of player that has all that doesn't get ganked in WoW, because they aren't standing still long enough to get ganked. Getting camped? Get friends, and hope they have epic flying mounts and some magical way to ground one.

No, the players that get ganked are players that have no chance in hell to escape, let alone fight back and retaliate. Blizzard is fooling themselves if they think PvP servers are a cut above.

The fact is, most leveling areas up until the major parts of The Outlands are empty aside from the random level 70 causing heartache or farming items. Severe, progress-stopping ganking doesn't even come into play until The Outlands. And that just so happes to be where the gankers get the fun little toys to make a levelers life hell. Epic flying mount? Check. Vastly superior level 70 gear? Check.

Come on Blizzard, how the fuck can Drysc be allowed to spew the bullshit he just did? In the link above, Drysc states "It isn't always going to be fair", to which I say IT IS NEVER FAIR.

I would love for Blizzard to prove me wrong and roll up a new toon on a PvP server and come across any fair fights. It won't happen, because it can't. The majority of players are level 70 and the last thing they want to do when leveling an alt is waste time fighting a fair fight. That leaves the "PvP" up to the fucking gankers and gank squads.

Fuck them, and fuck Blizzard for even dreaming that their PvP servers offer and sort of redeeming PvP content.

21 comments:

Scott said...

I know the "PvP guys" claim to the contrary, but in practice... PvP servers (and PvP MMO's) are nothing but gank-fests anyway.

Roll on a PvP server, expect ganking and little else. I've never seen anything else.

Cameron Sorden said...

It's not only unfair-- it's so far from fair as to be laughable. You know what else is laughable? That Blizzard comment.

If you're a new player on a PvP server, you don't know anyone there, and you're getting ganked by a level 70 in easily obtainable epics, it doesn't matter how many friends you make. You can't kill a 70 without another 70 or a few 60s.

What they mean by "make some friends" is "go beg some high levels to protect you."

Lame.

Cameron Sorden said...

It's not only unfair-- it's so far from fair as to be laughable. You know what else is laughable? That Blizzard comment.

If you're a new player on a PvP server, you don't know anyone there, and you're getting ganked by a level 70 in easily obtainable epics, it doesn't matter how many friends you make. You can't kill a 70 without another 70 or a few 60s.

What they mean by "make some friends" is "go beg some high levels to protect you."

Lame.

heartlessgamer said...

Yep, and I'm sure they'll drop whatever they are doing and come help, you know because there is such a huge benefit for them. Lets see.... 12 honor for going to help someone getting ganked (if you get a kill) or 1000 honor doing the daily BG quest. Hard decision, because both will take about the same time.

* unless its Terrokar Forest.

Spidubic said...

The only way to stop ganking is to rewire the entire human race. No game will ever, EVER be gank free as long as humans play it.

heartlessgamer said...

Bill, this is not about ganking or that ganking happens. It is about Blizzard unwilling to admit that it may be a bit of a problem and continue to make things such as epic flying mounts that intensify the problem 100 fold.

Players, on a PvP server, are usually looking for that feeling of never being safe, having to watch their back at all times. That is what makes PvP servers fun, and ganking is part of that fun, but not when ganking becomes the ONLY thing that happens on a PvP server. Currently, that is all that happens on the PvP servers.

Blizzard puts no attempt into reworking the worthless world PvP content, which should be the reason players go to a PvP server. Halaa, Hellfire, etc. should all be hopping with PvP action.

But that is not how WoW works. PvP is rewarded for going to an instanced version. Participating in PvP on your server in the world content is so subpar in terms of rewards and participation that it makes me sick.

A PvP server is just a "You will be ganked." server, nothing special about them at all.

Have no fear though, Lake Wintergrasp in WotLK will save the PvP servers! Until everyone realizes PvE servers get the same zone as well :P

sam said...

I disagree the only way to stop ganking is to change human nature. That statement shows a fundamental flaw in your logical process. If you want to stop ganking implement an honor loss if you kill someone more than 5 or 10 levels below you. .

Add faction to it. Create a bandit faction. If you gank enough lowbies your faction hits hated and then all gaurds in all cities attack you. At that point the game becomes unplayable for you. Log out go home....

If the gankers lost honor that they spend on gear or suffered in game consequences it would be greatly reduced. Simple easy to implement solutions.

But blizzard has no real competition and they are all about doing as little as possible till they do have competition.

But anyone saying it can't be fixed never raised kids. You can't stop all of it. But you can damn sure stop most of it. Its all about having consequences for your behavior.

sam said...

heartless does make a great point.

Why play on a PVP server? You get no reward that PVE servers don't get. You get no extra content. You just allow the gankers who suffer no penalties for ganking you.

My best friend an altaholic decided to roll on a pvp server a few months ago. he got his priest to about level 19 or 20. He walked into an inn and was ganked by a level 70 rogue. For 6 hours he would log onto another toon play for a bit then log in. boom get killed again. 4 different 70's not even the same one. he was killed so many times his gear went red. he deleted the character and never looked back. That should not be allowed. Lowbies have become content for bored endgamers on PVP servers. Bad policy, bad game design.

Spidubic said...

Wish I had a photographic memory. I know that a long time ago someone mentioned the exact same idea sam mentioned about how to stop ganking. It lead to a several page thread that pretty much explained why that would not work either. really wish I could remember what they said.

heartlessgamer said...

Getting ganked at inns, near battlemasters while loading from a bg visit, and other nefarious places on a PvP server gets retarded. Especially becuase rogues simply hit spring + vanish and rarely get found.

The #1 point I wanted to make is that PvE servers get the same "PvP rewards" as the PvP servers. There is nothing to justify the horrid ganking that occurs while players level on a PvP server. NOTHING, in a game built around getting something for everything (like standing around in an arena and losing 10 matches a week).

sam said...

I'd love to hear a reason for why it would never work. If you use the honor system and they lose honor yes some people will continue to do it but not as many. If you go with faction and let it work down to the point that they start getting attacked by guards and NPC's the game becomes pretty much unplayable for them. In fact as I consider it. I'd make anyone who hit that faction level worth 1000 honor points and PVP to anyone of any faction.

heartlessgamer said...

Sam, the issue that always comes up is determining who the aggressor is. It is no fun if low levels can start a fight and annoy higher levels and potentially force that higher level into killing them and getting penalized to do it.

I truly don't believe a solution for ganking exists, but there are certain things that can be done to discourage it outright.

Spidubic said...

Part of it is what HL says. The tables would be turned and in certain situations low levels could potentially harass a higher level and thus get him to lose faction and honour. imagine instead of levels 70s ganking lowbies that the new sport was lowbies KoSing level 70s. The new gank.

heartlessgamer said...

Personally, I think seperation of level brackets in PvP is a must. If a 70 walks into a 35-45 zone, they simply can't attack anyone not within 5 levels of them and the lower levels can't attack them. I do not see this being something hard to implement at all.

sam said...

While I see the potential you mention heartless it would only happen if the 70 were in lowbie areas for the most part. And unless they were close to his level then most 70's could probably run out of the area without ever dieing. While yes it would create another potential problem. I think the problem would be much smaller and less invasive. Its just like real life. You can't stop every asshole but you can make it miserable enough that most people quit. But only if you have consequences for the actions you are trying to prohibit.

But we are talking about PVP in wow a game where they let you change your name and move to another server. That alone shows they have no interest in making people accountable for thier actions.

Spidubic said...

But then you get the PvPers crying that you are somehow hurting PvP by relegating the fighting to 5 levels.

sam said...

As I said bill. You can't make everyone happy. You can just do your best to inhibit the bad behavior. If your looking for a perfect solution with no whining you are doomed to utter failer everytime.

Do people stop speeding because of traffic laws? Nope.

Do most people at least slow down and drive a bit slower and make the roads overall safer..Yep....

Saylah said...

I've rolled on WOW PVP servers since day one. I have one toon on PVE but she leveled PVP then went PVE to be with friends that bailed. Wah.wah.wah, now she's stuck.

There was always ganking but before the BGs, at least there was world PVP to offset that non-sense so you took the good with the bad. Outright hour long battles in SS, TM and the capitol cities was massive goodness. Now there is mostly just the bad (ganking) because no one does world PVP.

Putting it into perspective however, there is a whole lot LESS ganking in WOW where it's basically FFA in contested zones, than in EQ2 with level range restrictions! I rolled on PVP shortly after they implemented it and it is a MASSIVE GANKFEST - nothing fun to be found in it period. Whole bands of players roam lower level zones 1-shotting people. I hope they've changed their implementation that lets people level lock and gank in way where someone 5 levels lower than you can pwn yer face.

If you're at the controls trying and wearing the right gear for your class/level, there is no way in WOW for someone 5+ levels lower than you to just pwn yer face. And three level 10 players would have to have balls the size of Azeroth to surround a level 40 player with the intent of kicking his/her azz. That is ganking!

As for the rest, it really does add an element of excitment that I missed while I was on that WOW PVE server. I've actually abandoned that character since she can't be moved back. Sure I've had my share of being ganked and camped and it sucked when I didnt have a high level toon to log on to any deliver vengence. It happens to me even now when I didnt think to move a high level toon to where my alt is leveling or I just to feel like getting on one, so I wait it and remember who they were.

Saylah said...

I've rolled on WOW PVP servers since day one. I have one toon on PVE but she leveled PVP then went PVE to be with friends that bailed. Wah.wah.wah, now she's stuck.

There was always ganking but before the BGs, at least there was world PVP to offset that non-sense so you took the good with the bad. Outright hour long battles in SS, TM and the capitol cities was massive goodness. Now there is mostly just the bad (ganking) because no one does world PVP.

Putting it into perspective however, there is a whole lot LESS ganking in WOW where it's basically FFA in contested zones, than in EQ2 with level range restrictions! I rolled on PVP shortly after they implemented it and it is a MASSIVE GANKFEST - nothing fun to be found in it period. Whole bands of players roam lower level zones 1-shotting people. I hope they've changed their implementation that lets people level lock and gank in way where someone 5 levels lower than you can pwn yer face.

If you're at the controls trying and wearing the right gear for your class/level, there is no way in WOW for someone 5+ levels lower than you to just pwn yer face. And three level 10 players would have to have balls the size of Azeroth to surround a level 40 player with the intent of kicking his/her azz. That is ganking!

As for the rest, it really does add an element of excitment that I missed while I was on that WOW PVE server. I've actually abandoned that character since she can't be moved back. Sure I've had my share of being ganked and camped and it sucked when I didnt have a high level toon to log on to any deliver vengence. It happens to me even now when I didnt think to move a high level toon to where my alt is leveling or I just to feel like getting on one, so I wait it and remember who they were.

sam said...

I've seen several posts where people talk about a downranking system for instances. I think if they'd institute something like that and make it part of PVP that would be great.

If you attack someone 20 levels lower than you you "downrank" to his or her level. I can see some abuse with it. It would have to only happen if the higher level initiates it, not the other way around, and adjust if higher levels come in after the fact. But wouldn't that add some fun to it. And for those who say its stupid and wouldn't be fun. for that group isn't that the point?

heartlessgamer said...

Sam a downrank system could work both ways, regardless of who starts. That is actually a fairly common suggestion for PvP games with leveling.

The caveat is that the higher level should have more skills and better gear unlocked, so should be able to win a fight regardless of who starts.

However, the downranking system assures that the higher level doesn't win simply in one button press and it gives the chance for several low level characters to take on a higher level and not get insta pwned.

Sadly, no current game on the market could implement a down ranking system. It is too destructive and needs to be built in from day one of design.