September 14, 2005

MO2 - Stun

Stun
stun (st n)
tr.v. stunned, stun•ning, stuns
1. To daze or render senseless, by or as if by a blow.
2. To overwhelm or daze with a loud noise.
3. To stupefy, as with the emotional impact of an experience; astound.
n.
A blow or shock that stupefies.

Now that is how it is defined in the dictionary. How is it defined by an MMO gamer such as myself? A few words come to mind… gay… lame… retarded… and I probably could think of a lot more.

The essence of stun in any form in any MMO makes me sick to my stomach, but when it is thrown into a MMO’s Player vs. Player (PvP) system it makes me downright mad. Any ability designed to completely prevent you from playing your character is just bullshit. Slow, root, and other movement afflicting skills are great because you still have the option to fight back in some form or another.

It boggles me how any MMO developers building a game that is meant to be FUN can add a game mechanic that allows one player to completely prevent their enemy from fighting back. Where is the skill? There isn’t. Simple fact… if your enemy can’t fight back because you pressed the STUN button and killed them… you DON’T have skill.

Stun has been around since the beginning. Ultima Online had it in the form of paralyze. Everquest had it. Countless MUDs before both of them had it. Dark Ages of Camelot was the first “second generation” MMO to abuse it and every MMO up until now seems to be using it. World of Warcraft is the new flavor that seems to rejoice in letting a select few classes have mind boggling amounts of stun.

WoW being my current game… stuns have become a daily annoyance. Rogues, paladins, warriors, hunters, mages, Tauren, and any engineer have a form of stun. There is diminishing returns built into the system, but a stun is still a stun. The initial stuns last plenty long for a rogue to kill you and a paladins stun lasts long enough for the paladin’s friends to trounce you. Mage, hunter, warrior, and engineer stuns are short and uneventful.

However, they INTERUPT your current action. I can understand this being part of a classes abilities, but giving it to engineers and Taurens as a racial ability? WTF. It’s bad enough the most overplayed classes in WoW, rogues and paladins, spam stuns everywhere on the battlefield, but having engineering slowly become the must have trade skill profession for PvP… blah.

Stun when it is used as an interrupting ability and not a game stopping ability can work. WoW warriors intercept stun is an agreeable use of stun. It lasts for merely a split second and is as described… an intercept. WoW rogue stuns are unbearable and have driven me to log out more than once. Classes get some items that break stuns, but the stuns can be reapplied so quickly that it is worthless. Blizzard needs to realize diminishing returns are not working properly for stuns and fix them the same way they fixed slow effects such as frost shock and frost nova. The fix… after three stuns you become immune to stuns for approximately five minutes.

Stuns plain suck. They were reason for outcry in Dark Ages of Camelot and are creeping into the bullshit category in WoW. Let's hope the next generation gets a clue.

33 comments:

Anonymous said...

Side note: priests have stun too, it's call black out.


Now back to the topic:
Cry more noob!

P/S: Sorry can't help it.
(a Paladin, rogue, priest, warrior)

Anonymous said...

Side note: priests have stun too, it's call black out.


Now back to the topic:
Cry more noob!

P/S: Sorry can't help it.
(a Paladin, rogue, priest, warrior)

Lucky7 said...

In Arathi Basin last night I had three Rogues on me. Can you say sit back and watch yourself die? One Rogue is bad enough, but three...........
Anyway, I feel stuns do need a look at. What is the point of PvP if you get stunned till death? No fun in that. for you anyway. The Rogue has all the fun. If they are going to do that then make my Root last for 10 seconds minimum.
hehehe

heartlessgamer said...

Priests... pffft...

But yes multiple rogues = death... hence the fix is after 3 stuns you are immune and that goes for all class stuns. Not 3 paladins or 3 rogues... if you get hit by a paladin stun a rogue in turn should not be able to stun you 3 times right on top of it.

TrollPrince said...

I've gotta put one thing down before 'cry moe noob about rogue stuns they have diminishing returns' arises...Cheap Shot, Kidney Shout, Gouge, Blind, all different diminishing returns timers. Which is why they CAN CS for 4 seconds, Gouge for 3(?), KS for 6, Blind for 10, Vanish and Cheap shot again sicne the diminishing returns will be down again.

Just wanted to point it out...also, where does Mage have stun? Impact?

TrollPrince said...

I've gotta put one thing down before 'cry moe noob about rogue stuns they have diminishing returns' arises...Cheap Shot, Kidney Shout, Gouge, Blind, all different diminishing returns timers. Which is why they CAN CS for 4 seconds, Gouge for 3(?), KS for 6, Blind for 10, Vanish and Cheap shot again sicne the diminishing returns will be down again.

Just wanted to point it out...also, where does Mage have stun? Impact?

heartlessgamer said...

The fire blast thingy... or maybe I was confusing it with the priest stun... alas.

You pointed out a great part that I left out of the article. This was about stuns and not necissarily about WoW rogues... but it is the current FOTM.

On several message boards I am hearing this "If you took away rogue stuns... then they need more damage."

I simply point out the other controls they have that Trollprince listed.

Lucky7 said...

"Cheap Shot, Kidney Shout, Gouge, Blind, all different diminishing returns timers. Which is why they CAN CS for 4 seconds, Gouge for 3(?), KS for 6, Blind for 10, Vanish and Cheap shot again"

Wow! Never realized Rogues had so many stuns. No wonder if they attack me I am screwed. Even if the stun still allowed you to move at a slower pace then at least you could feel you were able to do something.

heartlessgamer said...

Defenseless... :P

Dieing with style :)

Anonymous said...

Gouge and Blind aren't stun effects. You don't even have the correct information involving what you're crying about.

And no, I don't play a rogue.

Anonymous said...

Gouge and Blind aren't stun effects. You don't even have the correct information involving what you're crying about.

And no, I don't play a rogue.

TrollPrince said...

No, Gouge/Blind are NOT stuns, but for the purpose of completely locking someone down they might as well be. Gouge is enough time to regen Energy and sit out the KS cooldown, and Blind is 10 seconds...bandaging. So, for the purposes of this discussion I believe Gouge and Blind can count, as this IS about being kept down and unable to act for larger periods of time.

TrollPrince said...

No, Gouge/Blind are NOT stuns, but for the purpose of completely locking someone down they might as well be. Gouge is enough time to regen Energy and sit out the KS cooldown, and Blind is 10 seconds...bandaging. So, for the purposes of this discussion I believe Gouge and Blind can count, as this IS about being kept down and unable to act for larger periods of time.

heartlessgamer said...

Gouge and Blind were kept out of the article because yes technically they are not stun effects because they break upon damage.

Problem is they are get out of jail free cards for rogues. It still amazes me that blind is a mini fear that makes you run around like an idiot... when in reality it should just decrease a players chance to hit and/or being really creative black out their screen.

Zonomar said...

A stun should break on damage.

There should be immunity from stuns for x amount of time after x number of stuns.

Anonymous said...

WAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I want my MOMMY!

Anonymous said...

WAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I want my MOMMY!

Lucky7 said...

Sitting and watching your character with the stun over his head is no fun and rather boring. Stuns turn PvP into Duck Shoots. But then again that is the only way a Rogue will play. Take the Stuns away from a Rogue and they would quit the class. 100% guarantee. Why? Because to put it simple any Rogue I have met is a chicken. Then will not fight straight up. Every fight I get into with a Rogue is near the end of a PvE fight when I am low health. Some call this playing the class or opportunistic. That may be true but that is still a chicken way to play. With stealth and many stuns it is not like they need to do it. But the typical Rogue mentality is easy fight. They do not want challenge because challenge means a loss. And the Rogue will not lose.

And yes this is a post after another night of Stunlock.
:)

Anonymous said...

Heartless = astoundingly newb

Anonymous said...

Heartless = astoundingly newb

Anonymous said...

I consider myself to be a good gamer and have personally NEVER had a problem fighting rogues lvls 30-60 while i was a warrior/priest/mage and i dont see how you people have such problems with them....perhaps you should duel more rogues or go to the battlegrounds?

Anonymous said...

I consider myself to be a good gamer and have personally NEVER had a problem fighting rogues lvls 30-60 while i was a warrior/priest/mage and i dont see how you people have such problems with them....perhaps you should duel more rogues or go to the battlegrounds?

Mojojojo said...

"Rogues are playing their class." OK, so rogues will stop using stealth and the element of surprise if you'll start nuking the warrior when you're three feet from him.

I'll stop using stealth and the element of surprise if your warrior will decide to "play his class" differently by using only ranged weapons.

And don't tell me you won't do the exact same thing on any other character if you come across someone else grinding. Of course you'll go for the kill. . . . Hypocrites.

Mojojojo said...

"Rogues are playing their class." OK, so rogues will stop using stealth and the element of surprise if you'll start nuking the warrior when you're three feet from him.

I'll stop using stealth and the element of surprise if your warrior will decide to "play his class" differently by using only ranged weapons.

And don't tell me you won't do the exact same thing on any other character if you come across someone else grinding. Of course you'll go for the kill. . . . Hypocrites.

heartlessgamer said...

There is a difference between playing your class to its advantages and just picking the EZ mode ganking class... which you can not deny is what attracts 50% or more of the rogue population. Its not like DAoC stealthers who were originally very very weak and needed constant upgrades before they became FOTM and overpowered. The original DAoC stealtehrs picked it for the right reasons... because its something they wanted to play. Sadly WoW rogues generally are FOTM.

And whoever said I had problems with rogues in PvP ... I win some and lose some.

Doesn't make me like stun anymore or less... even if I could beat them down every single fight by pressing one button. Stun is gay... and any ability that prevents you from PLAYING THE DAMN GAME is retarded.

Kindralas said...

Everyone knocks full crowd control in MMORPG's as being "of the devil," but the fact is that it's necessary, it's just somewhat out of control in WoW.

A caster, due to any kind of interrupt code, is generally going to be forced into "not playing" by one melee character getting close enough to start beating on him. The only options are instant cast partial control (snares, etc.) or the capability to flat control the target, and get out of the way to resume casting.

Without this element, casters are *completely* helpless. Look only to your example of overwhelming crowd control, Dark Age of Camelot, in the Old Frontiers days. Casters were just free RP's for any tanks roaming around, due to the fact that every tank could have Determination and Purge very cheaply, thus making crowd control a complete non-issue. As it is right now in said game, the same holds true, but to make yourself immune to crowd control, you simply have to give up every other ability you could have from Realm Rank.

It's crappy to be controlled, no doubt. All things considered, though, it's a necessity.

And I'd rather be stunned than feared. Stun is removal of control, fear is the randomization of control. Suddenly, that soft caster is behind your lines, with four or five tanks waiting to waste him...

heartlessgamer said...

Any CC without some sort of moderation in place is dumb. Hence stuns in WoW.

Anonymous said...

If you're 28 and working at McDonalds do you A)Bitch about it to everyone and keep working there. or B)Look for a better job and better yourself.

If you're mad because the Alliance have so many more players, then play alliance. If you're mad because rogues own, play a rogue.

They're constantly working on balance and if this is, or becomes a real issue to them they'll fix it. But right now I don't think it is. I play a 60 Pally and when I duel a rogue of the same level with similar gear I'm confident I've got a 50/50 chance to win. Which is called balance. Yeah, he can stun the crap out of me but I've got things like divine protection, holy light, etc. And I think every class played to their potential is pretty much on equal footing. You know I hate fighting a warlock, having him fear me and hit me with a bunch of damage over time spells... So I wear a trinket to dispell fear, that simple! Point being, I don't think this is a serious issue right now.

Just my two cents....

Anonymous said...

If you're 28 and working at McDonalds do you A)Bitch about it to everyone and keep working there. or B)Look for a better job and better yourself.

If you're mad because the Alliance have so many more players, then play alliance. If you're mad because rogues own, play a rogue.

They're constantly working on balance and if this is, or becomes a real issue to them they'll fix it. But right now I don't think it is. I play a 60 Pally and when I duel a rogue of the same level with similar gear I'm confident I've got a 50/50 chance to win. Which is called balance. Yeah, he can stun the crap out of me but I've got things like divine protection, holy light, etc. And I think every class played to their potential is pretty much on equal footing. You know I hate fighting a warlock, having him fear me and hit me with a bunch of damage over time spells... So I wear a trinket to dispell fear, that simple! Point being, I don't think this is a serious issue right now.

Just my two cents....

Anonymous said...

The paly above is a moron. Do you think cloth characters actually have a 50/50 chance with a rogue? I play a 60 mage and with the revolting amount of epic daggers floating about being 4 shotted (Ambush, normal hitx2, backstab) all in the span of 1.5 seconds that knocks off 4k health is common? How can I play to full potential when I asked how to prevent myself from being two shotted I was told to get more stam. I'm near the maximum hp possible for a mage and even with mana shield I even blink away from a dagger rogue. If I were to blink they would sprint which would close the gap in .75 seconds wehre they would proceed to kidney shot(stun me) then set me up for the backstab they missed previously. Tell me where is the 50/50 chance, where was the opportunity for me to play my class to the potential, huh? Normally I dont say this but STFU you damn pally. You have plate, only those with mail or plate are guaranteed a 50/50 chance with rogues.

Anonymous said...

The paly above is a moron. Do you think cloth characters actually have a 50/50 chance with a rogue? I play a 60 mage and with the revolting amount of epic daggers floating about being 4 shotted (Ambush, normal hitx2, backstab) all in the span of 1.5 seconds that knocks off 4k health is common? How can I play to full potential when I asked how to prevent myself from being two shotted I was told to get more stam. I'm near the maximum hp possible for a mage and even with mana shield I even blink away from a dagger rogue. If I were to blink they would sprint which would close the gap in .75 seconds wehre they would proceed to kidney shot(stun me) then set me up for the backstab they missed previously. Tell me where is the 50/50 chance, where was the opportunity for me to play my class to the potential, huh? Normally I dont say this but STFU you damn pally. You have plate, only those with mail or plate are guaranteed a 50/50 chance with rogues.

Anonymous said...

lol...

Heartless Gamer, all I can say is if Stun is your biggest concern about gaming, then you really need a wake up call.

Stun is a side effect of combat, you will be stunned in several forms of combat, whether it be in a video game or worse yet, real life. You can't just walk up to someone and say, 'Can we fight, but no stuns?', lol.. you sir, are an idiot about that.

It's not out of control, and games like Dark Age of Camelot have their place with the stun buttong. They know how to use it and who should have that abilty.

Sounds to me like you should be spending more time learning how to avoid that situation, rather than typing some crap on the internet. Learn to play your character and learn to play the game before you whine about it.

I for one play all sides of the line, so yes, I do know what I'm talking about. Cleric, Scout, Infiltrator, Wizard, Sorceress, etc. I have them all, and I know how to avoid the stun and how to step out of it as well and return fire.

Suggest you do the same

Anonymous said...

lol...

Heartless Gamer, all I can say is if Stun is your biggest concern about gaming, then you really need a wake up call.

Stun is a side effect of combat, you will be stunned in several forms of combat, whether it be in a video game or worse yet, real life. You can't just walk up to someone and say, 'Can we fight, but no stuns?', lol.. you sir, are an idiot about that.

It's not out of control, and games like Dark Age of Camelot have their place with the stun buttong. They know how to use it and who should have that abilty.

Sounds to me like you should be spending more time learning how to avoid that situation, rather than typing some crap on the internet. Learn to play your character and learn to play the game before you whine about it.

I for one play all sides of the line, so yes, I do know what I'm talking about. Cleric, Scout, Infiltrator, Wizard, Sorceress, etc. I have them all, and I know how to avoid the stun and how to step out of it as well and return fire.

Suggest you do the same